NBA 2012-13 Season Thread - Crown The Heat!
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Loser Araysar
Chief Russia Reporter. Stock Pals CEO. Head of AI.
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Its a common refrain amongst most analysts and a lot of ex-NBA players that had Jordan played today like he did in the 1990s, he'd be averaging at least 50 PPG in an entire season.
When you look at players who scored the most points per game, there was a ton of them in the 1960s and 1970s, a very noticeable dropoff in the 1980s and 1990s and then it picks up again in 2000s.
Can you re-word this to make sense to my dumb little brain i seem to have?
What im comprehending is that there was alot of players who scored the most ppg in the 1960s and 70s, but there was a dropoff in players scoring the most ppg in the 80s 90s?
and yes i agree with the contact rules today jordan would have easily averaged 50.
Looking at old iverson/jordan games really makes me miss that time in the nba, iverson was mah dude...
What he is saying is. Like right now there is like 10 players averaging 25ppg, and 2-3 of them are Averaging close to 30. During the 80's and 90's, 25 may have been the top end of what most people were doing, and 20ppg was REALLY good(Average now).
So you see trends where high volume scorers were considered great back then(80-90's) that would be maybe a decent player in todays NBA. Or something like that
So you see trends where high volume scorers were considered great back then(80-90's) that would be maybe a decent player in todays NBA. Or something like that
Loser Araysar
Chief Russia Reporter. Stock Pals CEO. Head of AI.
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Well yeah the PPG stuff too.
But I was talking about single game point records.
In the 1960 and 1970s you'd get these outrageous single game point records because basketball was still evolving and when you got a single guy in there who was a giant mismatch (like Wilt Chamberlain), he could run amok on 5 dopey white guys on the court. Wilt was amazing for his time, but right now he would just be good, not an amazing center. Once basketball began to solidify into a more defined science by late 70s/early 80s with modern offensive schemes, defensive schemes, player isolation, etc. - single game point records started dropping off noticeably. Coaches started to focus more on defense in order to shutdown superstar players - Detroit Pistons "Bad Boys" era was a good example of that. Guys started playing tough, physical defense and it became less of a gentleman's game than it was before. Game point totals dropped off noticeably too. It was an indicator that it was becoming harder to score. When you look at game point totals prior to the 1980s the scores were always pretty outrageous like 126-118 or 136-124. By early 90s, game scores would rarely break the triple digit barrier.
So they made it easier to score in mid to late 1990s in order to improve the NBA product because people wanted to see dunks and 3 pointers, not solid fundamentals. There's no way Kobe would drop 80+ points on anyone in the 1980s even if he could replay that decade over and over till the end of time, he simply didn't have the skill set. With constant bumping, mauling, hand checking and the perpetual hand in the face, he'd be lucky to get 30-40 in a game.
That's what made Jordan so amazing is that he was mentally tough to play in that environment and still average 30 PPG for a decade. These days he could 50 PPG for an entire season easily if he was in his late 20's, because nowadays the league protects its superstars so much and you can't even touch a guy while defending. Watch some Bulls games from late 1980s, you got defenders literally molesting Jordan in front of 20,000 people. If that was happening out in the parking lot instead of the game court, he'd have enough evidence to press charges and those guys would have to register as sex offenders.
But I was talking about single game point records.
In the 1960 and 1970s you'd get these outrageous single game point records because basketball was still evolving and when you got a single guy in there who was a giant mismatch (like Wilt Chamberlain), he could run amok on 5 dopey white guys on the court. Wilt was amazing for his time, but right now he would just be good, not an amazing center. Once basketball began to solidify into a more defined science by late 70s/early 80s with modern offensive schemes, defensive schemes, player isolation, etc. - single game point records started dropping off noticeably. Coaches started to focus more on defense in order to shutdown superstar players - Detroit Pistons "Bad Boys" era was a good example of that. Guys started playing tough, physical defense and it became less of a gentleman's game than it was before. Game point totals dropped off noticeably too. It was an indicator that it was becoming harder to score. When you look at game point totals prior to the 1980s the scores were always pretty outrageous like 126-118 or 136-124. By early 90s, game scores would rarely break the triple digit barrier.
So they made it easier to score in mid to late 1990s in order to improve the NBA product because people wanted to see dunks and 3 pointers, not solid fundamentals. There's no way Kobe would drop 80+ points on anyone in the 1980s even if he could replay that decade over and over till the end of time, he simply didn't have the skill set. With constant bumping, mauling, hand checking and the perpetual hand in the face, he'd be lucky to get 30-40 in a game.
That's what made Jordan so amazing is that he was mentally tough to play in that environment and still average 30 PPG for a decade. These days he could 50 PPG for an entire season easily if he was in his late 20's, because nowadays the league protects its superstars so much and you can't even touch a guy while defending. Watch some Bulls games from late 1980s, you got defenders literally molesting Jordan in front of 20,000 people. If that was happening out in the parking lot instead of the game court, he'd have enough evidence to press charges and those guys would have to register as sex offenders.
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The biggest reason overall scoring dipped in the 90s was because of the pace of play. In the 80s teams averaged almost a full 10 more possessions per game than they do even now and as a result averaged a ton more points. The 90s that brought iso ball and individual scorers along with defenses that slowed the game down had a big impact on PPG but not really scoring efficiency. Players were simply taking less shots.
Here's normalized points per 100 possessions for a 30 year or so stretch (data is a little old so missing the last few years):
Year P100
2007 98.2
2006 96.3
2005 96.6
2004 96.9
2003 99.8
2002 99.2
2001 98.4
2000 99.6
1999 98.7
1998 100.6
1997 98.0
1996 96.3
1995 95.4
1994 94.9
1993 96.6
1992 95.1
1991 95.1
1990 95.4
1989 95.3
1988 95.5
1987 95.1
1986 95.0
1985 95.7
1984 95.2
1983 95.4
1982 98.0
1981 95.8
1980 97.3
1979 97.5
1978 98.9
1977 101.7
1976 103.0
But you can see those numbers don't fluctuate as much as you think they would given rule changes or drastic differences in the quality of defense. Pace of play just alters based on what era we're in. Numbers dip in the 90s, but not drastically.
Now as far as Jordan specifically goes, I have mixed feelings. I don't know if defense was incredibly better in the late 80s and 90s than it is today. I think today the league, as a whole, is more athletic than it was. So while Jordan certainly would be an A+ athlete in today's game he'd be surrounding by more people near that level too. I also think the game is as intelligent as it's ever been and so sure you can't hand check, but NBA defenses force players into their specific weak spots much better than they used to. I don't want to discount the man because he's the best the game has ever seen, but the "he'd score 50 per game easy today" is hyperbole and the drop off between LeBron and Jordan isn't anywhere near as nuts as people want to claim it is.
Here's normalized points per 100 possessions for a 30 year or so stretch (data is a little old so missing the last few years):
Year P100
2007 98.2
2006 96.3
2005 96.6
2004 96.9
2003 99.8
2002 99.2
2001 98.4
2000 99.6
1999 98.7
1998 100.6
1997 98.0
1996 96.3
1995 95.4
1994 94.9
1993 96.6
1992 95.1
1991 95.1
1990 95.4
1989 95.3
1988 95.5
1987 95.1
1986 95.0
1985 95.7
1984 95.2
1983 95.4
1982 98.0
1981 95.8
1980 97.3
1979 97.5
1978 98.9
1977 101.7
1976 103.0
But you can see those numbers don't fluctuate as much as you think they would given rule changes or drastic differences in the quality of defense. Pace of play just alters based on what era we're in. Numbers dip in the 90s, but not drastically.
Now as far as Jordan specifically goes, I have mixed feelings. I don't know if defense was incredibly better in the late 80s and 90s than it is today. I think today the league, as a whole, is more athletic than it was. So while Jordan certainly would be an A+ athlete in today's game he'd be surrounding by more people near that level too. I also think the game is as intelligent as it's ever been and so sure you can't hand check, but NBA defenses force players into their specific weak spots much better than they used to. I don't want to discount the man because he's the best the game has ever seen, but the "he'd score 50 per game easy today" is hyperbole and the drop off between LeBron and Jordan isn't anywhere near as nuts as people want to claim it is.
LeBron would of won like the last 5 Slam Dunk contests if he took part with this dunk from pregame warmups last night:
http://deadspin.com/5986755/
No one cares about nobodies dunking.
http://deadspin.com/5986755/
No one cares about nobodies dunking.
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Only upside to the Wolves season is I don't have to cheer for this guy anymore.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmri0QZYKks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmri0QZYKks
Meh Mavs season is officially over after losing to Memphis after being up 25.
Can't even win when Dirk has 51 points and 34 rebounds over 2 games. First time missing playoffs in over a decade, Dirk missing ~30 games with knee surgery killed them. But I think the rest of the team just isn't good enough - Dirk really needs a new team mate he can hand the franchise star role over to, and play second fiddle. He's said as much himself, he can't carry this team every night at this point.
Mayo and Collison have shown flashes over the year, but I think both are just too dumb in late game situations. Mayo's ceiling may be as the ~4th best guy on a contender and Collison is like a great backup PG but you need a real facilitator as your starter/crunch time guy.
Elton Brand, Carter, and Marion have all been awesome.
Kaman should retire, at least from the center position. He might be able to still play at PF if he has a defense minded center behind him.
Can't even win when Dirk has 51 points and 34 rebounds over 2 games. First time missing playoffs in over a decade, Dirk missing ~30 games with knee surgery killed them. But I think the rest of the team just isn't good enough - Dirk really needs a new team mate he can hand the franchise star role over to, and play second fiddle. He's said as much himself, he can't carry this team every night at this point.
Mayo and Collison have shown flashes over the year, but I think both are just too dumb in late game situations. Mayo's ceiling may be as the ~4th best guy on a contender and Collison is like a great backup PG but you need a real facilitator as your starter/crunch time guy.
Elton Brand, Carter, and Marion have all been awesome.
Kaman should retire, at least from the center position. He might be able to still play at PF if he has a defense minded center behind him.
ham
Lord Nagafen Raider
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plus they had been trying to dump him for pennies on the dollar ever since they drafted Evan Turner (and even before that I think).
Without the Magic involved there's no way the 76ers give up Iggy and a 1st and come back with Bynum, even if it's a 1 legged Bynum. The Magic are a generous organization
Without the Magic involved there's no way the 76ers give up Iggy and a 1st and come back with Bynum, even if it's a 1 legged Bynum. The Magic are a generous organization
KCXIV
Molten Core Raider
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no they wouldnt have, they would have adjusted just like everyone else has.The Bad Boys would have been banned from the league in today's game.
It was only rougher, because the nba let them play, guys now day could still fucking play in the 80's they would have adjusted as well, but guys are much more athletic now though.
They really need to keep some people around for continuity's sake. I enjoyed the run while it lasted, hoping the Mavs really are only a good offseason away but it feels like they need more.
Gilgamel
A Man Chooses....
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I would take Vucevic and Harkless on their rookie deals, plus Afflalo on a fair deal, plus multiple firsts over Bynum. Vucevic is legitimately good. He rebounds at a better rate than Bynum, has an actual face up game, and will be a good three point shooter in time. Plus you know, his legs work.
Of course I tend to like random European big men, Ilyasova, Pek, now Vucevic, and he's not half the player Bynum can be when he's healthy. But still..... Magic didn't do terrible when everyone knew they had to make a deal.