North Korea goes full retard
- Thread starter Juvarisx
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No they're not. Here's where you explain why you think they are and where I tell you why you're wrong.
Dis
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You are trying to make an analogy that oversimplifies the whole scenario. It really is not about us vs. them. The whole situation is way more complicated than a simple Cold War scenario.
Edit: Also I know Chaos is making the point and you are simply responding to it, but two incorrect points don't all of a sudden make it a correct world view. That is the point of my post.
Cutlery
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This is the same tired bullshit we use every time we want to trump up support for whatever warmongering we currently want to do.
There are an awful lot of fucking people in this country that are incapable of seeing or believing that other people in different areas may have a different perspective on shit than we do. It doesn't make them crazy and it doesn't make them retarded. There's a lot of precedent set for acquiring nuclear weapons and then being given a seat at the big boy table, you can not honestly say that you think that going that route is retarded.
If the justification for "us" attacking "them" is that "they" pose a threat to "us", I'm not sure that I'm the one oversimplifying things.
Dis
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Eomer
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Pretty sure their ICBM's are liquid fueled. Not sure about their short range ones. But otherwise yeah.
Szlia
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I am not sure how shady or transparent the processes were, but both north and south voted their way to their political system. The anti-communist sentiment in the south was also severely boosted by the korean war (South declared independence, North attacked), a war that also caused the first economic sanctions against North Korea (the second significant step in sanctions coming after the bombing of a south korean airliner in 1987 - unless you are a conspiracy theorist, tough to blame anyone but Kim Jong-Il for that). The governance in the south has certainly been pretty disgusting with more of its fair share of corruption and right wing authoritarianism, but saying that it justified several assassination attempts, countless abductions and a long string of military provocations is a bit much.
I have no doubt that the US would have used all means necessary to steer a peaceful reunification away from communism, but it was never in the cards really. And since we are in the realm of speculations, if the North did not invade the South in hope of unifying the country, but just said: 'ok, you do your thing, we'll do ours', I doubt the US would have gone out of its way to rain on their parade (though some sanctions would have hit them by virtue of being allied with the USSR).
That said, we can both agree that economic sanction is a terrible way to deal with autocratic regimes. North Korea, Iran, Iraq back in the days, Cuba... it's more than unproductive, it's counterproductive: it strengthen the regimes it targets and hurts their people.
Yeah, separately. That's not what I'm talking about.
You're starting your analysis way after I do.
Right. Now imagine being a Korean in the late 1940's with that knowledge.
My point isn't whether or not it would have succeeded if put to a vote. My point is that it was never going to get to that point. That's what it means to not have self-determination. To re-use my Martian invasion scenario, if Martians conquered the US and said "NO NAZISM ALLOWED (and by the way you're going to be manufacturing goods to be used on Mars)" the fact that we wouldn't really want a Nazi government and that one would never have developed on its own wouldn't really be the point. The point would be our very righteous stance of "FUCK YOU." We would be morally correct to take such a position and if anyone told us we'd be better off economically if we just accepted the Martian terms (or negotiated with them) we'd feel justified chucking fucking batteries at that quisling (irony!) fucker in the streets.
*coughvietnamcough*
chaos
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No, I really don't have to entertain every hypothetical anyone can possibly come up with. And I never said we were justified in anything, I try my best not to view the world in terms of "right" and "wrong". I think everyone pretty much agrees that NK can't do shit to us right now. 10 years from now? 20 years from now? different story. So from my point of view I would rather deal with the problem now, either through diplomacy or multi-lateral military action or whatever rather than sit around waiting for the inevitable playing this same stupid game every few years.
And Mikhail's post was just gibberish. There is a much simpler way to state what he wanted, and no I wouldn't be interested in having a conversation about that hypothetical. It doesn't matter, it isn't reality, this is.
Cutlery
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What's reality? That they can't do shit to us right now?
Okay, then we're agreed, there's no fucking reason to attack them. You don't kill people because they might murder someone later. That's not how the world fucking works.
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Wha? Explain all the drone attacks of the past few years. Im sure 99% of those fuckers killed didnt hurt one soul here, but hey were "terrorists" and they might in the future.
The entire Iraq war was a pre-emptive attack of another country because of what they might have to use against us.
Vietnam?
Korean War?
chaos
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I also don't think military action is the only answer. But it should definitely be an option. In 20 years when we're cleaning up the radioactive remnants of one of our coastal cities, will we feel pride in how fair and righteous we were in allowing North Korea plenty of time to develop and test those weapons while we subsidize their military through humanitarian aid? The whole situation is goddamn ridiculous.
Cutlery
Kill All the White People
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Cutlery
Kill All the White People
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That's not how the world works on a micro scale. We don't get to execute troubled kids because they're going to grow up to be murderers and general pieces of shit. In addition, just because that IS how it works on a macro scale (nations), does not mean that it should. Iraq was a fucking sham too, if you remember. Complete fucking sham. Zero weapons of mass destruction. And what did it get that country? A shitload of destroyed infrastructure and hundreds of thousands of innocent casualties as a result of an insurgency who never would have been insurgents had we not been there.
Like it or not, the groundwork has been laid for countries obtaining nuclear capabilities and being allowed to sit at the big boy table. It happened with India, it happened with Pakistan, so why do you think this is any different? If I was the leader of some backwater shithole nation, I guarantee you the first thing I'd be doing is developing a nuclear weapon. Why? Because then people have to listen to me and respect my opinions even though they don't agree with me and can't understand why I think THEIR nation is the evil one.
For the record, I have never once supported any of that bullshit you listed. They're all mistakes in my book. If we stopped butting into everyone's business, maybe there wouldn't be so many fucking terrorists lining up to get the chance to watch America burn. Iraq was a mistake, Vietnam was a mistake. Continuing to make mistakes doesn't make us right, it makes us fucking retarded.
And Chaos, the exact same fucking shit was said about Saddam Hussein too. Oh, he's got a powerful military. Oh, he's got weapons of mass destruction. What did he have? An army that rolled the fuck over and shit their pants at the sight of the first US tanks rolling over the fucking sand dunes. He didn't have shit, just like these people don't have shit. They have zero capability to attack any of our territories, and zero incentive to do so until we start fucking with them. Oh, they're attacking our allies? Fuck them. Where the fuck have they been while our boys have been dying by the thousands in a shithole halfway across the globe? Oh, they sent a token 250 man force? Well, good for them.
The point of all of this was the fact that you seem to think that we have the right to attack them because they pose a threat to us, but they don't have the right to attack us because we pose a threat to them. That's bullshit. Martian machines of asskicking aside, you should have been able to grasp that point.