North Korea goes full retard
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chaos
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Well who the hell is talking about a micro scale? We're talking about relationships between nations, not executing your kid dwn the street so he won't break into your house.
I don't think we have a "right" to do anything, I think that concept is silly. And I don't think they don't have the "right" to do anything. I think that we should protect ourselves however necessary. Bottom line. All this philosophical bullshit about rights and justifications doesn't mean anything when the rubber hits the road, or the missiles hit the civilian targets.
As an aside, do you really think your comparison between NK and Saddam Hussein is legitimate? Given only the unclassified shit that we all know, you really think that? Come the fuck on.
I don't think we have a "right" to do anything, I think that concept is silly. And I don't think they don't have the "right" to do anything. I think that we should protect ourselves however necessary. Bottom line. All this philosophical bullshit about rights and justifications doesn't mean anything when the rubber hits the road, or the missiles hit the civilian targets.
As an aside, do you really think your comparison between NK and Saddam Hussein is legitimate? Given only the unclassified shit that we all know, you really think that? Come the fuck on.
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Dis
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You're not interested in having a conversation about that hypothetical because it denies you the ability to ascribe a sense of danger and otherness to the would-be victim of aggression and without that your entire risible line of thought collapses.
It is not the way that the world works that those things are justifiable. Many unjustifiable things happen all the time. We are having a conversation about what things we want have happen in the future. If you don't want people to say "you're a horrible sack of shit and I'm never going to listen to you again" you need to do a better job justifying an act of overt aggression than just saying "WELL THAYS GONNA BE A THREAT SOMEDAY!" Not fucking good enough.
What a load of bullshit. You know that self-defense is the justification you're attempting here but you're trying to deflect any need to actually demonstrate that that's what's occurring (protip: you can't because the side that attacks first isn't exercising self-defense).
As an aside, the war against Iraq wouldn't have been justified even if everything Bush had said about Saddam had been true.
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But a threat someday might be justifiable. Not saying the NK is, but hypothetically speaking...Put yourself in a leaders shoes where your #1 priority is to protect your citizens. Do you bury your head in the sand and hope all is well in the future? Also I do understand that this is exactly what NK is doing right now, trying to protect their citizens and also the power of the man-god.
Cutlery
Kill All the White People
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You think we have a right to obliterate another nation to protect ourselves when they pose quite literally zero danger to us?
Your stock with me is really riding off the rails into crazy land. Let me reiterate this - North Korea currently poses exactly zero fucking danger to America, the American way of life, or any Americans not stationed along a DMZ.
Allow me to remind you that this conversation started when I quoted a "Why haven't we attacked them yet?" question. We haven't attacked them yet because they're not a threat and we're not bloodthirsty warmongers. Nor should we be in the future just because of some bullshit like a trumped up map in a war room showing a missile path to Texas. The comparisons between the regime in NK and Iraq are entirely legitimate. These people have nothing and the only thing that makes you think they do is because THEY say they do. They said that shit about the Iraqi military too.
Szlia
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Both South and North Vietnam were dramatic clusterfucks and North certainly did not do its own thing, leaving the south alone like in my fantasy scenario for North Korea.
Btw I have a choice quote for you I saw in the Vietnam War page on wikipedia (I sure did a lot of reading because you today!)
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Well, based on tens of thousands of years of history, what you or I want to happen in the future is IMO just not possible, because I do not think that man has it in him to be just and righteous. So we need to deal with the reality, not some fictitious ideal that can never be reached.
If "a threat someday" is a justifiable reason for an attack than North Korea is justified in attacking us right now. Since we know that North Korea is not justified in attacking us now, we have to accept that our premise is false.
Fadaar
That guy
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Cutlery
Kill All the White People
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Well that unfortunately is not the line of thought of most people in this thread who think that we always have the moral high ground and need to give these spoiled brats a timeout.
I mean that's total nonsense. That might be what we said but it's not at all what we would or did do. The only reason Vietnam wasn't one country from the start was that, in spite of the overwhelming popularity of the communist movement, the allied powers decided France deserved a colony. South Vietnam was (like South Korea) the invention of an occupying army. It's not like we (meaning the west) ever gave them the chance to have real elections. In the third world, democracy is only acceptable if America's candidate is electable.
Phazael
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I do not want to see us engaging in military action against NK, but it might be inevitable at this point unless China puts their foot down. We have been steadily starving that country to the point where they will essentially only have one choice if the current regime wants to maintain power (as all regimes do), which is to pick a fight. Mouse that Roared and all that.
We could just blow them off, but there is a descent chance if we did and China did not pick up the slack that they could destabilize the entire region with any number of scenarios involving setting off a nuke. Our economic interests are too heavily connected to Asia to let that happen, unfortunately. Anything that makes Japan or China pucker its sphintre, even a little, would have fairly major economic consequences over here, which is why NK Sabre rattling has gotten as much results as it has. This is, like all modern conflicts involving a superpower, about the money.
Thing is, I don't think their present situation is sustainable, so its a big game of chicken right now where the first guy to throw a punch loses. Sadly, the best scenario for us right now would be if NK engaged in some sort of conventional military attack against either SK or another target. We could level their military bases with air power and bail, while patting ourselves on the back for how awesome we are. Then they would spend a couple more decades rebuilding their bases and continuing to hold us up as the great evil to be united against. It would ultimately serve everyone interests, but would suck for the average NK citizen.
Another solution I could see would be to pull up stakes from Japan and end all the WW2 era limitations on their military power and let them be the police of that region. Not sure how well that would go over with a lot of people, however.
We could just blow them off, but there is a descent chance if we did and China did not pick up the slack that they could destabilize the entire region with any number of scenarios involving setting off a nuke. Our economic interests are too heavily connected to Asia to let that happen, unfortunately. Anything that makes Japan or China pucker its sphintre, even a little, would have fairly major economic consequences over here, which is why NK Sabre rattling has gotten as much results as it has. This is, like all modern conflicts involving a superpower, about the money.
Thing is, I don't think their present situation is sustainable, so its a big game of chicken right now where the first guy to throw a punch loses. Sadly, the best scenario for us right now would be if NK engaged in some sort of conventional military attack against either SK or another target. We could level their military bases with air power and bail, while patting ourselves on the back for how awesome we are. Then they would spend a couple more decades rebuilding their bases and continuing to hold us up as the great evil to be united against. It would ultimately serve everyone interests, but would suck for the average NK citizen.
Another solution I could see would be to pull up stakes from Japan and end all the WW2 era limitations on their military power and let them be the police of that region. Not sure how well that would go over with a lot of people, however.
Phazael
Confirmed Beta Shitlord, Fat Bastard
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We both know that is not going to happen for several reasons any time soon. First, we do want to slow them down on the ballistic missile front until we have some sort of feasable defense against such systems. Second, China does not want another asian economy with a vast pool of exploitable labor to compete with. Also, we never lift sanctions once they are in place historically, no matter how outdated they are (hi2u Cuba), because it benefits too many under the table dealers (who are well connected) to have them in place.