McCree's issues are more highlighted the higher level you go. A damage boosted McCree against a Discorded target one-shots. At low levels where McCrees are just spamming LMB blindly it isn't quite as huge a deal.
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Amzin
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I don't see how it's natural when you shouldn't even use one of his abilities basically ever (FtH), that seems unnatural to me.
Reaper just seemed like a liability in those matches that I saw him in, often even with 2+ tanks on the opposing team the Reaper was just not accomplishing anything. Having to get in that close with no mobility compared to like Tracer meant he just got wrecked by Defense Matrix or Discord or Flashbang.
Reaper just seemed like a liability in those matches that I saw him in, often even with 2+ tanks on the opposing team the Reaper was just not accomplishing anything. Having to get in that close with no mobility compared to like Tracer meant he just got wrecked by Defense Matrix or Discord or Flashbang.
Needless
Toe Sucker
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I don't see the issue with McCree, the only time somebody is going to complain is when the other team's McCree is better than yours? lol? It's not like you're drafting heroes in this game and one team gets McCree and the other is entirely fucked.
Surprise, you can play McCree too! however, you only have yourself to blame for not being good at aiming like other mccrees lol
Surprise, you can play McCree too! however, you only have yourself to blame for not being good at aiming like other mccrees lol
Noodleface
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Its the fact that he is so good he's pushing everyone else out. There is the other issue of him 1shotting from across the map which is pretty anti-fun. Its a pretty bad argument saying McCree is fine because you both can have a McCree.
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McCree still does have a drop off at range, you can test it in the training range, it's just longer than it was. It's definitely not "across the map" but it's long enough to not make him only effective if he's absolutely in your face. That is what FTH is supposed to be for, left click is supposed to be range. Doing 40 damage at range with a 6 round clip just means he's always going to get out classed.
I think he's a very necessary character. He keeps the game honest. He is a damage character that can sit by your supports to help deal with the tons of flanking characters but still be effective. Plus his ult is terrible, often gets him killed, and is countered by half the cast. It's basically best used zoning which is sad.
Complaints like but if someone has discord on them and he's getting damage boosted he one shots people don't hold merit for me. Almost anyone can one shot people in those circumstances, what is your point?
I think he's a very necessary character. He keeps the game honest. He is a damage character that can sit by your supports to help deal with the tons of flanking characters but still be effective. Plus his ult is terrible, often gets him killed, and is countered by half the cast. It's basically best used zoning which is sad.
Complaints like but if someone has discord on them and he's getting damage boosted he one shots people don't hold merit for me. Almost anyone can one shot people in those circumstances, what is your point?
Needless
Toe Sucker
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Yeah, the problem doesn't inherently lie on McCree "one shotting" people from afar. I personally think Discord is waaaaaaaaaaay too good and should be at most 30% like mercy's damage buff lol.
Make Discord 30% and his 210 headshots from range will only be 182, suddenly half the cast isn't getting 1 shot by a sick discord headshot. If mccree is mercy buffed AND hits a discord target in the head then yeah.. you should be dead regardless lol
I definitely think they should revise the S76 nerf to his spread though.
Make Discord 30% and his 210 headshots from range will only be 182, suddenly half the cast isn't getting 1 shot by a sick discord headshot. If mccree is mercy buffed AND hits a discord target in the head then yeah.. you should be dead regardless lol
I definitely think they should revise the S76 nerf to his spread though.
Like who from the distance and reliability of McCree? If he isn't broken why do you never not see mirrored McCrees in the current patch?
Also test out his drop-off. The range is huge that he still gets 100% damage. His 100% damage on LMB is 70 not 40 also.
I should also add this is from someone who considers McCree his main. Or at the very least a hitscan main.
gauze
Molten Core Raider
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To be fair.. he is pretty broken, and yes it is like that. Not to where the team with McCree wins 100% and/or can't draft a better McCree against them.. the game doesn't work like that, but McCree right now can out duel a Widow. He outshines people in the similar 'classing' as him, so there is no reason to draft a 76, hanzo, pharah, ect anymore because its literally McCree, and McCree only.
I mean, I can't get people to understand this anywhere, because either people are really happy with the changes, or hate it so much they can only say to revert it.. but the problem is actually really fucking simple. He just shoots too fast. Delaying the shoots between Peacemaker will increase the versatility of FtH, while allowing him to have that mid/long prowess but not so much so he devalues someone like Widow or Hanzo, or even 76 in terms of DPS. FtH is suppose to be his answer to close range fighting, but because Peacemaker can two tap and is relatively fast.. its better to just take your shots asap. The range damage increase, and FtH nerfs are solid as fuck, its just.. too fast. As satisfying as it is 2 tapping pharahs the second they are airborn, or killing widows in two shots instantaneously. This game also doesn't really suffer much from recoil, take CS for example, imagine a recoil-less deagle.
Needless, I know you posted on the csgo thread, and I don't know how aware you were of certain nerfs and metas in regards to csgo. But remember the A1-S nerf? when it was a literal lazer gun? It had a genuine play time of 100%, no one wanted to use the A4. It got nerfed, increased range recoil and dropped fire rate by a little.. people deemed it useless and went back to the A4. After about 2 months or 3 months, both the A1s and A4 started seeing about 50/50 usage. Their roles became more properly defined. You had a guy with an A1s in the back, and a guy in the front with an A4.. it's that simple.
Over all though, this buff to McCree needed to happen because other wise he is useless and buffing FtH isn't the answer. He just needs to be lessened in how fast he can do damage, similar to that of Widow/Hanzo, with FtH being his buffer in the close quarters.
kaid
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Amzin
Lord Nagafen Raider
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I mostly disagree with this. His range falloff was too short, sure, but now it's too long again, like it used to be. FtH was too strong, but now it's too weak. They really have an issue with smaller changes so far it seems like. The problem with FtH now is that it actually does damage too slowly to kill Tracer/Genji, which are supposed to be his primary targets. You're better off Flash-Headshot-Bodyshotting in almost every situation. It's not that he does too much damage with left click (it should be like that at close range) it's that the range on it is higher than it should be and FtH is so weak it's just worse (unless you're unloading into a fatty which is not what it's supposed to be for either).
He has similar or higher DPS than S76 at similar range with no recoil to fight with and a much easier time dealing with close-range surprises than S76 too. Pharah isn't outclassed by McCree but because he's essentially a souped-up S76 right now and S76 was already a good counter to her AND there's a McCree every single match now, she just can't exist in that scenario. With as nerfed as McCree was he still saw pro/tourney play a little bit, he just needed some small buffs or tweaks, and instead they don't address his problems and just restore a problem they previously SPECIFICALLY addressed. It's asinine. If his range had never been an issue previously, OK maybe they just were testing it out and didn't think it'd be as bad as it's turning out to be, but they literally had this exact issue before.
gauze
Molten Core Raider
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I wouldn't say its too long, I would much rather him have that long capability with slow firing, but thats me and I haven't run tests to see how far long really is. Even at long range he technically can't one shot someone, only about 140 damage in total crit(they could probably pad it to 60/120 dmg and be safe.) I know this game isn't anywhere near a real-life, but I would expect a revolver to do some damage at long distance but slow firing. Which it is "slow" but it could be slower/less spammy than it currently is. I just know on Numbani as an example, from the cat walk, to the attackers side of mid back by the bus.. where i'd normally take a Hanzo, I can do Hanzo's work 10x faster by double tapping everyone crossing with the new McCree. I don't know if Evernothing is still here, but he saw the devastation I unleashed with McCree. Even on Kings Row attacking, walking on the furthest side of the bus.. having a Pharah back in the air toward the statue.. I can dispatch her immediately.
If you have to FtH a tracer.. you're doing something seriously wrong, even before the buff. Genji too, FtH'ing is such a liability with his reflect and ability to jump and create distance.. those two as an example imo are poor. I know that he is suppose to deal with those targets, but only in coherence with Flashbang. I'm not saying FtH isn't underpowered, but by lowering the rate at which you can left click should open more potential for FtH having viability. Only thing I could say is a micro buff to allow FtH to crit, would be all it needed. It's low to high is only 22-40, and I would be fucking surprised if someone was so good at McCree they can land all 6 shots to the face. Crit would only make it 44-80 damage, and would solve his ability to deal w/ the lower end people more effectively... but right now the most daunting thing about him is the damage he delivers w/ his left click... which I believe the damage to be fine, its just the rate at which he does it at.
Though as of right now, he massively out DPS's 76 because of his lack of requirement ie Helix and rate at which it takes. McCree right now, decimates Pharahs because of his long range buff. You can either two shot her w/ a headshot/body, or three/four shot with all body shots. Essentially you're able to get her out of the air by the time she hits the pinnacle of her jetboost. Right now, how things have been going in my ranked games.. you only need one McCree to deal w/ a Pharah, even a good one. Games have essentially been tank/tank/supp/supp/McCree, and the other dps doesn't really matter but it has usually been Reaper, Genji, and Tracer.. or if i'm not on McCree.. cause i'm an asshole hanzomain XD I'm not saying I haven't seen McCree/76 draft, but out of all the games since patch.. I've only seen two. Prior, there wasn't a team that didn't have a 76 on it and/or Pharah.
76 was a good answer to Pharah, the bout between them was extremely balanced. For a 76 to do good against a Pharah in the air, he had to consistently land headshots otherwise she still maintained a problem, and helix'ing her.. you had to be a God of Gods. Even if the 76 was really good, the Pharah still had more sky time compared to the sky time she is able to get against a McCree. And yeah, he was played before the buff.. if you call less 25% played. 76 wasn't a solid solo answer to Pharah, she still posed a threat even with a 76 on the field, so a McCree kinda gave it a buffer. Plus he was still a decent pick because flashbang is still one of the most solid forms of disruptive cc in the game.
They honestly needed to buff his long range capability, hes not shooting a nerf gun here. I mean it might be overkill.. but it obviously got through.. so they're taking it into a direction. I'll figure it asinine if they say oops and nerf left click again. So its there to stay as far as I can tell, the only real option is just to dampen the amount of shots fired in a time frame because atm making FtH better just isn't the right answer.
edit; when i'm saying slower.. i'm not saying he should have a massive time between shot. If this it is accurate, he can shoot every .5 seconds, maybe .8 or 1s.
If you have to FtH a tracer.. you're doing something seriously wrong, even before the buff. Genji too, FtH'ing is such a liability with his reflect and ability to jump and create distance.. those two as an example imo are poor. I know that he is suppose to deal with those targets, but only in coherence with Flashbang. I'm not saying FtH isn't underpowered, but by lowering the rate at which you can left click should open more potential for FtH having viability. Only thing I could say is a micro buff to allow FtH to crit, would be all it needed. It's low to high is only 22-40, and I would be fucking surprised if someone was so good at McCree they can land all 6 shots to the face. Crit would only make it 44-80 damage, and would solve his ability to deal w/ the lower end people more effectively... but right now the most daunting thing about him is the damage he delivers w/ his left click... which I believe the damage to be fine, its just the rate at which he does it at.
Though as of right now, he massively out DPS's 76 because of his lack of requirement ie Helix and rate at which it takes. McCree right now, decimates Pharahs because of his long range buff. You can either two shot her w/ a headshot/body, or three/four shot with all body shots. Essentially you're able to get her out of the air by the time she hits the pinnacle of her jetboost. Right now, how things have been going in my ranked games.. you only need one McCree to deal w/ a Pharah, even a good one. Games have essentially been tank/tank/supp/supp/McCree, and the other dps doesn't really matter but it has usually been Reaper, Genji, and Tracer.. or if i'm not on McCree.. cause i'm an asshole hanzomain XD I'm not saying I haven't seen McCree/76 draft, but out of all the games since patch.. I've only seen two. Prior, there wasn't a team that didn't have a 76 on it and/or Pharah.
76 was a good answer to Pharah, the bout between them was extremely balanced. For a 76 to do good against a Pharah in the air, he had to consistently land headshots otherwise she still maintained a problem, and helix'ing her.. you had to be a God of Gods. Even if the 76 was really good, the Pharah still had more sky time compared to the sky time she is able to get against a McCree. And yeah, he was played before the buff.. if you call less 25% played. 76 wasn't a solid solo answer to Pharah, she still posed a threat even with a 76 on the field, so a McCree kinda gave it a buffer. Plus he was still a decent pick because flashbang is still one of the most solid forms of disruptive cc in the game.
They honestly needed to buff his long range capability, hes not shooting a nerf gun here. I mean it might be overkill.. but it obviously got through.. so they're taking it into a direction. I'll figure it asinine if they say oops and nerf left click again. So its there to stay as far as I can tell, the only real option is just to dampen the amount of shots fired in a time frame because atm making FtH better just isn't the right answer.
edit; when i'm saying slower.. i'm not saying he should have a massive time between shot. If this it is accurate, he can shoot every .5 seconds, maybe .8 or 1s.
Even before the buffs McCree wasn't entirety out of the meta. His head shots still did a fuckton of damage. He wasn't a highly used hero but he had his niche.
Noodleface
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gauze
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Yes and no. 140 at a close engagement, medium it fell off pretty hard, and long was non-existent. I have a handful of McCree mains that I talk to and play with, since release.. none of them stuck with McCree after FtH nerf. I mean they might have played him more if the 1hero limit was live at the sametime, but I heard nothing but complaining about how under powered he was... you were better off either getting double 76, tracer, or even reaper. None of the these guys are people below 60 rating if that means anything, and they're not complaining just so that McCree is at the top again. They might have upped his long range modifier a little too high, but in regular competitive match, you were way better off drafting double 76 before the patch. Landing Helix and a couple shots is just a tad bit worse in the dps department than the current flash bang headshot/bodyshot that McCree's are doing. ( McCree 25dmg FB > 120dmg headshot > 70dmg body vs 76's Helix 120dmg direct? > 5-17 dmg body > 10-34dmg headshot)
I mean, over all.. its a game with 22 something heroes and counting, so not all patches are going to make everyone happy and a perfect balance might never exist. There are micro changes that can balance the game in iterations, but there will always be something that offsets it at another point. It'll be easier to balance now that they can focus on single heroes rather than stacking heroes. McCree until something changes will be going from less than 25% play time, to 100% play time. Champions like 76 and Pharah are going to drop below 50%, 76 might even go below 25%, hard to say because he still a very solid sustained fighter. I think a happy medium is getting characters to roughly above 45% play time, and the game will be pretty balanced but it ain't gonna happen ! metas are metas for a reason, and there aren't enough champions to fluctuate meta breaking yet.
I don't run into much D.va spam, shes played, and amazing but not to a crazy degree in every game. McCree is a guaranteed lock in, and you're gonna have a bad time if you don't have one either. Ana is new champion cancer, everyone is going to play her.. and be extremely awful, it sucks. It's so bad that my friend who is a Rein main spent 4 hours practicing her so that in competitive he can instant lock her, so that we don't have cancer that is Ana. She's a great champion, but some people really suck at aiming, or dont try to heal teammates, or whatever.. I don't even know.. its bad.. even at 70+. Navi spams Ana, even has a golden gun, and hes fucking awful.