Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO
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Guest, it's time once again for the massively important and exciting FoH Asshat Tournament!
Go here and give us your nominations!Who's been the biggest Asshat in the last year? Give us your worst ones!
Daidraco
Avatar of War Slayer
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I can nit pick the hell out of this game, the same as anyone else. Im just trying to understand this philosophy that the game team has going. Their main design philosophy seems to be "community" oriented and that that is what is going to set them apart from every other MMO available. But yet, to achieve this, they bring back the ideas of EverQuest and pull some shit from the dark ages in hopes that maybe everything that was early EverQuest was what created that community. I wont beat around the bush, I'm 90% sure that I will at least try the game if it truly does come out, but some of these design decisions are just... terrible. But hell, Ive been playing WoW off and on for over 10 years now - fuck, maybe I'll like it.
xzi
Mouthbreather
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I'll definitely try the game. In all honesty I don't give a fuck what the game looks like if it's enjoyable. I mean I've played basically every western MMO so far, it's not like that's going to change.
I'm sure it will fill a niche I haven't felt in quite a while at least. Watching the live stream right now, the world is nice so far at least in the state it's in. Reminds me a lot of LOTRO to be honest
I'm sure it will fill a niche I haven't felt in quite a while at least. Watching the live stream right now, the world is nice so far at least in the state it's in. Reminds me a lot of LOTRO to be honest
Arden
Blackwing Lair Raider
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Their main design philosophy is to create an EQ redux. It's that easy, for the most part. I think that also means creating a very "community-oriented" game, because EQ was a very community-oriented game. Basically, anytime you are wondering about a VR design philosophy, ask yourself "was this how it was in EQ?" and I think you will have your answer.
Every new video of VR's that I watch reinforces the fact that they do intend to stay true to EQ's "sandboxy" mechanics. Like him or not, McQuaid stays very consistent in his philosophy of letting positive reinforcement and community controls regulate "bad player behavior" rather than relying on "negative" or restrictive game mechanics. That's good, because the lack of restrictive mechanics is one of the most integral components of what made EQ so malleable (and fun). The one exception to this is that it seems like they intend to scale items down depending on character level. I am a big opponent of any kind of environmental scaling, so that's shitty news. The items and the NPCs should be constant, never scaled. Player skills and abilities are already scaled-- why not just leave it at that?
The video was pretty good. I would definitely encourage them to do some serious work on combat sounds, spell sounds, spell effects, and UI and item art/design. Those areas (especially combat/spell sounds and spell effects) were one of EQ's most underrated features and are really important for player immersion (something VG lacked). They are also more on the "polish" end of things, so maybe they have plans to improve those things (I hope so).
At this point I'm fairly well convinced that, given enough time and funding, this team could probably create a pretty decent EQ redux with some interesting new features. That said, here's the big question (as others have mentioned): Are they actually going to have the time to do it before they run out of money or we are all so old and senile we forget to keep checking back to see if they've finished the game?
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gLobal
Trakanon Raider
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The more I think about it, the more excited I'm becoming about the games direction. I'm betting quite a few others are too.
Personally, I wasn't looking for anything revolutionary and I'm not underwhelmed at all. If anything, I'm actually impressed that they're sticking very closely to the EQ formula. There are probably more similarities (mechanics wise) to EQ, than even EQ2. Those who wanted a reskin of EQ with modern touches should be very happy if this continues to move forward.
I think a game like this could very well be 'successful' in the modern day. There will always be gamers (even in the new generation) that find it interesting, challenging, and fun. By success, I mean: keep the lights on, employees paid, and turn a profit. If it launches, I'd hope for 150,000 - 300,000+ subs. I'm not sure what the critical mass needed to maintain a game like this, but I'd hope that's enough to keep development speed and quality good.
It all comes down to management now, which is what we're all concerned about. If they can stay on track, keep their shit together, and actually launch and maintain the game - then they'll have my box sale + sub.
Personally, I wasn't looking for anything revolutionary and I'm not underwhelmed at all. If anything, I'm actually impressed that they're sticking very closely to the EQ formula. There are probably more similarities (mechanics wise) to EQ, than even EQ2. Those who wanted a reskin of EQ with modern touches should be very happy if this continues to move forward.
I think a game like this could very well be 'successful' in the modern day. There will always be gamers (even in the new generation) that find it interesting, challenging, and fun. By success, I mean: keep the lights on, employees paid, and turn a profit. If it launches, I'd hope for 150,000 - 300,000+ subs. I'm not sure what the critical mass needed to maintain a game like this, but I'd hope that's enough to keep development speed and quality good.
It all comes down to management now, which is what we're all concerned about. If they can stay on track, keep their shit together, and actually launch and maintain the game - then they'll have my box sale + sub.
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Cynn
Golden Knight of the Realm
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If I want a game like WoW I just play WoW... But with this game I am really happy to see a refresh on EQ -- it will be nice to play a game that isn't the same remix of the current WoW-like genre of games.
I won't ding Pantheon for being to old school or archaic in terms of using game design mechanics that are more than a decade old. There are enough options for MMO game flavors out there already. I am just happy to see someone make a true MMORPG instead of another MMO theme park quest hub boring asstastic game.
The only potential negative I see is if they fold before releasing a game which would be really unfortunate. We need someone to break the current mold of MMO game design --- even if that means taking a step back.
I won't ding Pantheon for being to old school or archaic in terms of using game design mechanics that are more than a decade old. There are enough options for MMO game flavors out there already. I am just happy to see someone make a true MMORPG instead of another MMO theme park quest hub boring asstastic game.
The only potential negative I see is if they fold before releasing a game which would be really unfortunate. We need someone to break the current mold of MMO game design --- even if that means taking a step back.
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Dullahan
Golden Knight of the Realm
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I too hope they will reconsider the item scaling. If they do skills and caps like EQ, weapons scale naturally. Basically any overpowered ability or item can be controlled through a skill system. Even something like a fungi tunic could be throttled by a "recovery" skill if they wanted to reduce the effectiveness at low levels.
I say keep all that stuff under the hood. The player doesn't need to know everything. That was part of the mystique.
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Fyff
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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I'm really disappointed by the videos they showed. Not the graphics and the animations, those will come along I hope. My problem is they are keeping a bunch of the outdated things from EQ. This is literally just an EQ classic reskin. Do I want mercenaries and a bunch of the other modern EQ things? No. Do I want to see "Your Dual Wield gains a level" no. No I don't....
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I just skipped through the vids, it looks great. It is EQ and Vanguard in a new skin. This is what people have wanted for a decade and nobody even attempted it before.
Lunis
Blackwing Lair Raider
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I don't see how anyone on this forum could criticize the flow of the gameplay. Does anyone here really want another solo quest-hub MMO with only grouping in dungeons? Leveling in a pre-made group is 10x more fun and enjoyable. There seemed to be just enough downtime to plan/socialize but not the crazy amount like early EQ, and the pace of combat seemed more like Vanguard but with a locked hotbar like EQ. Which I don't mind because having 3 hotbars of shit (or 6 in EQ2) was annoying and redundant.
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I see a lot of talk about the game being an EQ1 reskin. While that's not exactly far from the truth, keep in mind they are adding a whole lot of new stuff as well, to make it interesting:
- Atmospheres
- Acclimation
- Perception System
- Melees with actual abilities/spells/mana usage
- Colored mana system
- Climbing
- UI Improvements
- Flying mobs
- etc
You can read more about it in this megathread / summary: Pantheon Stream #3 Summary
So yeah, they used EQ1 as a base. But, they know that you can't just make a new EQ1 in 2016. They are adding many new ideas and mechanics to make the game fresh and innovate on the genre as well. Whether they get all of these ideas fully implemented and have enough money to reach the full scope of the project remains to be seen, but all we can do is hope they pull it off and continue spreading the word. Streams with massive exposure like they just had with CohhCarnage are sure to help reach additional backers and investors. They need to keep doing stuff like this.
- Atmospheres
- Acclimation
- Perception System
- Melees with actual abilities/spells/mana usage
- Colored mana system
- Climbing
- UI Improvements
- Flying mobs
- etc
You can read more about it in this megathread / summary: Pantheon Stream #3 Summary
So yeah, they used EQ1 as a base. But, they know that you can't just make a new EQ1 in 2016. They are adding many new ideas and mechanics to make the game fresh and innovate on the genre as well. Whether they get all of these ideas fully implemented and have enough money to reach the full scope of the project remains to be seen, but all we can do is hope they pull it off and continue spreading the word. Streams with massive exposure like they just had with CohhCarnage are sure to help reach additional backers and investors. They need to keep doing stuff like this.
Reht
Molten Core Raider
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I can definitely understand your disappointment with the videos if you were expecting it to be more than EQ 2.0. Unfortunately, this might not end up being the game for you then, and i am not saying that to be an asshole or troll you. However, there are enough of us who want an EQ classic reskin, even with the outdated things; hopefully enough of us to make it successful if/when it launches. I still love EQ more than just about any other MMO (other than DAoC, but that ship sailed) even though i hate what's been done to it over the last 10-12 years and quit because of it. I hope it eventually grows on you.
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Fyff
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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In my mind some of the improvements and advancements in the genre should be added. Like games got rid of the skill leveling systems for a reason. They do not add anything beneficial to the game. If they can't learn from and expand on the things that didn't work before then I have very little hope they will bring anything to the table.
Reht
Molten Core Raider
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I get that and agree to a point; i am all for quality of life improvements, etc. while retaining the same style of gameplay. I am not sure they have figured out how to juggle that without deviating too far from their intended direction. Brad clearly went back to the one successful game he knows so it was bound to be very very EQesque. The other thing they are dealing with is the community on their forums are about anti-change as anyone i have seen. There's this weird, kind of a stupid transitive logic over there with a lot of the vocal minority: EQ1 was great, and these mechanics were in EQ1, therefore since they were in EQ1 and it was great, the mechanics are great too and must be included in Pantheon. I think by the end of the beta, they will have changed some of the core EQesque mechanics, will be it enough? No idea, time will tell.
Boggles my mind that one of the EQ creators is explicitly trying to make an EQ clone and people from an EQ forum complain that it's too much like original EQ.
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Reht
Molten Core Raider
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Yeah, they killed a couple of named and showed the loot. The summary 2002 posted above shows some of the loot and a couple of named images.
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Cynn
Golden Knight of the Realm
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I think they probably are but I haven't watched all of the streams so I have no idea if the question was asked. But If you think about it, that was half the reason to encourage people to even go super deep into dungeons like Guk and Seb to begin with -- the whole risk vs. reward concept and stuff.
Some of today's advancements in the industry should be considered but they need to make sense for this type of game. A good example is the Nexus stones, which, from what I can tell thus far, allow players to bind themselves within the game world without necessarily relying on other players to do it for them (one example of over-reliance on interdependence back in the day). Something like that still fits within this game's core design philosophies. A bad example of a feature in today's MMOs that would not fit well in Pantheon would be say, faster travel, especially at lower levels. In fact, they even commented in the video that mounts would be in the game but at much later levels. I liked that.
Regarding the skill leveling system that EQ employed, I totally disagree with your statement. That concept makes total sense for a game like this. I mean, if I've used a 1H sword for 20 levels and then suddenly loot some badass mace that I want to start wielding, I shouldn't be able to just equip it and keep on rolling as I would with the sword. There needs to be some form of skill tied to using it.
Having said that, we all know that in EQ1, that simply meant running out and attacking the nearest mob for 10-20 minutes while you watch the "You have become better at 1HB" spam fly on by in your chat window to get you all caught up to your max. So yes, that implementation of this concept did not add much value to the game but that doesn't mean it can't. I can see lots of potential for this mechanic if they really wanted to make it better.
I wouldn't necessarily want them to focus on something like this right now. They have a ton of other shit to work on. But if we're talking wish lists, I would love to see that added.
I'm not sure those things will amount to much, a lot of it seems gimmicky and too minor to mention. But I think if the core game is as addictive as EQ, those bonus things might be enough.
The thing that gives me the most hope is when he talked about his Rogue having different modes which weren't added to the game yet. But it looked just like Vanguard how most classes had different modes or stances that affected how they played, so you could end up playing as a dps or tank depending on the mode. If they add enough depth to the classes like that, I think the game will be awesome.
My favorite answer was the one about soloing. When they said they are making the game for groups, but they wont do anything to deliberately stop soloing. That is how a game like this should be done. That is what emergent gameplay is all about. It was the one thing I hated the most about Vanguard, the dots system combined with deliberately linked mobs made it so you couldn't solo in dungeons etc. This sounds more like EQ which gave the players freedom to sort things out themselves. Most classes couldn't solo in a dungeon in EQ either, but a Necro could if they were careful.
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