Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

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zzeris

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First, i will say that as a game designer of a particular genre of game, you should be doing your homework and at least casually checking out the competition, thats for sure.

Second, I will disagre with you on one point. WoW did in fact singlehandedly destroy the entire genre of mmorpg. So at least on that point Brad was correct.

I don't think they destroyed it. They found what a vast majority of gamers wanted in an MMO and made them that game. It was a fantastic game in vanilla but the audience wanted easier and they gave that even at their detriment. I believe the other developers destroyed the industry because they either copied WoW too much or made inferior games. WAR could have been amazing, but they didn't fix issues from Camelot or improve response time for a PVP game. RIFT was amazing until they took out the best parts right before release. That's not on Blizzard, Trion fucked up. GW2 focused so much on PVP that a beautiful well-made game had nothing else to offer. It was very MMO-lite. SWTOR was a worse version of WoW in space with voice acting. Not enough of a lure but very successful short term.

People think WoW killed the genre because their favorite game of yore died off. Usually(always), it was because the developer fucked up.
 

goishen

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Please continue to lecture us about how the game ran fine when the god damn creator himself says VAST MAJORITY of people did not progress past level 2 or 3.

Frame rate AND latency issues.

Ran like a fucking dream guys. Maybe that's all it was for qwerty, so high on sniffing glue Vanguard was a fucking 3 hour dream.


And qwetard sayeth...

I dunno what his fucking problem was. Game ran fine for me.
 

mkopec

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I should of worded it differently. I think it lead to the destruction of the genre. And why is so? Because the last great hope is fucking Pantheon, lol.

Ill give you a few of the many reasons.... Solo questing. This was such a fucking breakthrough at the time. Most of us old EQ folks were like FUCK YEAH!! Finally I dont have to LFG to advance... Except you know, this was a mmo, you know, mut-iplayer? Of course this solo quest grind led to one at lv 60 now relying on groups and raids to advance further. Most of which did not have a fucking clue how to play in a group setting. In fact, in the beginning days of WoW, it was actually detrimental to your progress when you had multiple people in your group questing together because you were actually competing for those boar ass drops. I think at its core, this was a wrong move to take the mmo genre down that road. And everyone basically copied this solo quest thing from then on. Of course this is not to say that there should not be any solo type shit in a mmo, of course not, but when your entire 1-60 game relies on it, save a few dungeon stops along the way which were entirely not needed, youre setting this up for fails. the game basically turned the lv1-max game a fucking chore only to get to the "real" game. In EQ you could inspect someone and say, yeah this dude has been places, hes experienced some shit. In wow everyone had the same shit.

Oh and the dungeons. Yeah those linear, one path cave crawls with the same mobs, same shit, no real danger, same drops time after time. In fact speaking of, the entire worlds felt sterile. No mysteries, no where to explore, no wondering whats in that hut or cave or building over there, is that some named badass red con dude? I wonder what he drops? No danger, only where that next exclamation mark took you for your next collect 10 cow hooves quest. Of course instancing was cool, your own little playground that no one could fuck with you in, steal your kills, ninja loot your shit, etc. But again, at the cost of some real world people to people experiences, good or bad. Of course EQ could of profited with some instances here and there, like in the raid scene, certain boss areas of dungeons, etc... Im not no purist here, its just that when you look at the world Blizzard created, it was devoid of any charm, any feel, it was all the same shit, just different level and different rocks and trees around you. No buffs anymore, no helping out noobs with a nice DS and Temperance that made their next hour of play a fucking joy while you were running by..... Etc...
 
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Soygen

The Dirty Dozen For the Price of One
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Qwerty is officially bating me now and it is no longer fun :) Qwerty, the F16 is departing. Expect your internet to die within 4 hours. For the good of the forum.
giphy.gif
 
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ZyyzYzzy

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I should of worded it differently. I think it lead to the destruction of the genre. And why is so? Because the last great hope is fucking Pantheon, lol.

Ill give you a few of the many reasons.... Solo questing. This was such a fucking breakthrough at the time. Most of us old EQ folks were like FUCK YEAH!! Finally I dont have to LFG to advance... Except you know, this was a mmo, you know, mut-iplayer? Of course this solo quest grind led to one at lv 60 now relying on groups and raids to advance further. Most of which did not have a fucking clue how to play in a group setting. In fact, in the beginning days of WoW, it was actually detrimental to your progress when you had multiple people in your group questing together because you were actually competing for those boar ass drops. I think at its core, this was a wrong move to take the mmo genre down that road. And everyone basically copied this solo quest thing from then on. Of course this is not to say that there should not be any solo type shit in a mmo, of course not, but when your entire 1-60 game relies on it, save a few dungeon stops along the way which were entirely not needed, youre setting this up for fails. the game basically turned the lv1-max game a fucking chore only to get to the "real" game.

Oh and the dungeons. Yeah those linear, one path cave crawls with the same mobs, same shit, no real danger, same drops time after time. In fact speaking of, the entire worlds felt sterile. No mysteries, no where to explore, no wondering whats in that hut or cave or building over there, is that some named badass red con dude? I wonder what he drops? No danger, only where that next exclamation mark took you for your next collect 10 cow hooves quest. Of course instancing was cool, your own little playground that no one could fuck with you in, steal your kills, ninja loot your shit, etc. But again, at the cost of some real world people to people experiences, good or bad. Of course EQ could of profited with some instances here and there, like in the raid scene, certain boss areas of dungeons, etc... Im not no purist here, its just that when you look at the world Blizzard created, it was devoid of any charm, any feel, it was all the same shit, just different level and different rocks and trees around you. No buffs anymore, no helping out noobs with a nice DS and Temperance that made their next hour of play a fucking joy while you were running by.
Did you play vanilla wow? There was plenty of grouping for quests and dungeons. There were super long quest chains thar required grouos too.

Not many dungeons in vanilla were linear either.

Open world had plenty if elite mobs and camps and dying to nirmal mobs was more common. Plus open world PvP aspect in Vanilla too.
 
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Reht

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Did you play vanilla wow? There was plenty of grouping for quests and dungeons. There were super long quest chains thar required grouos too.

Not many dungeons in vanilla were linear either.

Open world had plenty if elite mobs and camps and dying to nirmal mobs was more common. Plus open world PvP aspect in Vanilla too.
Yeah, that's what i remember it being like, those changes came after......
 

mkopec

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And that lasted for what? 6 months? Then they "normalized" everything. My point still stands. The game was devoid of any life outside the raid end game. I will give you the pvp though, that shit was fun while it lasted, then they added the battlegrounds which was cool. One of the few things blizzard added to the genre.
 

ZyyzYzzy

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And that lasted for what? 6 months? Then they "normalized" everything. My point still stands. The game was devoid of any life outside the raid end game. I will give you the pvp though, that shit was fun while it lasted, then they added the battlegrounds which was cool. One of the few things blizzard added to the genre.
Lasted longer than 6 months, but okay?
 

zzeris

King Turd of Shit Hill
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Yeah, vanilla was the best MMO I ever played. It was a fixed EQ with charm, stories, long quest chains, great dungeons, awesome PVP, and solid raids. It had high-level dragons, giants, etc just randomly wandering in a few zones, skills leveling up, and real difficulty in areas. It wasn't perfect but it really was a giant step up from EQ. It started to morph after the first expansion but they did a fantastic job showing people what an MMO could accomplish. Unfortunately, no one was able to improve beyond minor additions. Public quests, yay! Voice acting, yay! They eventually went where their smaller customer base wanted them to go. It was a terrible decision but the game has had some amazing memories for me. EQ did too but there was a lot more broken with EQ...like their CS. Expansions every 6 months without fixing current issues. Broken quests, pathing, etc. EQ was all about milking the customer base.
 
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mkopec

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^^ I still didnt like the solo quest grind. At times I wished for a group and some mindless pulling and slaughtering of some mobs. I kind of agree with you that they did improve some shit here and there. Later to be all blown up out of proportions.

ZyyzYzzy ZyyzYzzy Well whatever, thats what I took away from it. Its cool if you liked it, jut telling you how I saw it. Its been a while now, maybe like 2008-9? lat time I played, and it has only gotten worse. Dungeon finder, raid finder, pretty much no one EVER talks to one another outside your guild if you have one. Last character I played 1-70 or 80, whatever, was a heals pally, strictly through dungeon finder after noob levels and I probably saw like one or two sentence someone type out.
 
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ZyyzYzzy

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Well whatever, thats what I took away from it. Its cool if you liked it, jut telling you how I saw it. Its been a while now, maybe like 2008-9? lat time I played, and it has only gotten worse. Dungeon finder, raid finder, pretty much no one EVER talks to one another outside your guild if you have one. Last character I played 1-70 or 80, whatever, was a heals pally, strictly through dungeon finder after noob levels and I probably saw like one or two sentence someone type out.
Okay? Don't act like you couldn't just solo grind mobs and ignore the social aspect of EQ if you just wanted to level (assuming you were a class that could solo).

What you described above, well the features, were added across multiple expansions (years). Yes it is a welfare epic abomination now, I wont deny that.
 
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zzeris

King Turd of Shit Hill
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Well whatever, thats what I took away from it. Its cool if you liked it, jut telling you how I saw it. Its been a while now, maybe like 2008-9? lat time I played, and it has only gotten worse. Dungeon finder, raid finder, pretty much no one EVER talks to one another outside your guild if you have one. Last character I played 1-70 or 80, whatever, was a heals pally, strictly through dungeon finder after noob levels and I probably saw like one or two sentence someone type out.

Yeah, the modern game is crap but it's exactly what their smaller fanbase wants now. TBC had so many whiny cunts bitching about the difficulty and they caved. That was the start of the end. That and their quest system just sucks and the game is ancient now.

Zyyz,

I am shocked no one has done a welfare research project on WoW. I'm sure no one wants the true results but WoW and real life prove..welfare is bad.
 
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mkopec

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Could not be social in WoW other than vent or mumble because you were busy mashing buttons like a fucking monkey with no downtime in between.
 

Utnayan

F16 patrolling Rajaah until he plays DS3
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^^ I still didnt like the solo quest grind. At times I wished for a group and some mindless pulling and slaughtering of some mobs. I kind of agree with you that they did improve some shit here and there. Later to be all blown up out of proportions.

ZyyzYzzy ZyyzYzzy Well whatever, thats what I took away from it. Its cool if you liked it, jut telling you how I saw it. Its been a while now, maybe like 2008-9? lat time I played, and it has only gotten worse. Dungeon finder, raid finder, pretty much no one EVER talks to one another outside your guild if you have one. Last character I played 1-70 or 80, whatever, was a heals pally, strictly through dungeon finder after noob levels and I probably saw like one or two sentence someone type out.

That sentence was me. "Nice healing you noob!"
 
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mkopec

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Anyway, the whole point to this is maybe we do need to take a step back a bit to the glory days of mmorpgs and rediscover some of that lost magic. Im hoping someone does it right again, maybe this game who knows, but there has to be a middle ground here somewhere between EQ and WoW that someone rediscovers.
 

ZyyzYzzy

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Anyway, the whole point to this is maybe we do need to take a step back a bit to the glory days of mmorpgs and rediscover some of that lost magic. Im hoping someone does it right again, maybe this game who knows, but there has to be a middle ground here somewhere between EQ and WoW that someone rediscovers.
Uh no classic EQ? No thanks. Broken pathing, tons of unfinished quests, completely unbalanced classes, huge time investment, yea no.

Aspects of Vanilla WoW or a PvP oriented game like DAoC (in particular where crafted gear can be the best), with some moderb features, yes.
 
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mkopec

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This is why I said BETWEEN EQ and WoW. No one wants classic again, at least I dont. Aint no one got time for that. On the PvP front i do agree with you. I do enjoy me some PvP sprinkled in for sure open world, battlegrounds, shit like AVs were fucking epic, the classic AV. But the arena crap it turned into these days, no thanks.

Ive been fucking around on a emu EQ server since Xmas break, I think its called VoG and its fucking perfect. All mobs heath and power cut in 1/2, faster exp, hardly any downtime, Can solo or duo and up to 4 boxes, but ive been playing with my 12 yr old son, both dual box. The dude has ports to all vanilla and kunark dungeons set up, and ports to other places in velious. Its been nice to revisit those places, some even that i have yet to se the bowels of back in the day. PoP is the last stop and thats what we got up to, but the power jump is insane even on that server. You have to do all the flagging and shit and this is where im like "meh".
 
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Utnayan

F16 patrolling Rajaah until he plays DS3
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Anyway, the whole point to this is maybe we do need to take a step back a bit to the glory days of mmorpgs and rediscover some of that lost magic. Im hoping someone does it right again, maybe this game who knows, but there has to be a middle ground here somewhere between EQ and WoW that someone rediscovers.

Agree. But I also guarantee you, it won't be any of the clowns in the bucket now like Walton and McQuaid. Anyone on the EQ/SOE anything in which they were higher than a developer should be immediately nixed and kicked off the internet.
 
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