Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Arden · Apr 29, 2017

gugabuba said:
Some of these I can understand, but I think they said you could not change the spells you had memorized during combat. Why limit that? Just makes things less interesting.

I picked up on that too, as did a few other people I know watching this game. If Pantheon plans to limit what you can do while "in combat," I definitely hope they reconsider. Not being able to swap out memmed spells seems like a pretty bullshit restrictive mechanic. To my knowledge no one ever abused the ability to swap spells while in combat in EQ. As others have said, attempting to swap spells could be difficult and came with risks. If you pulled it off, great, if not, well you paid the price for trying. It's that type of elasticity that made EQ a great game.

I generally hate the idea that the game would recognize you as being "in combat" or "out of combat" and change game features accordingly. I've played other games that utilize the whole "in combat" mechanic and really, really didn't like it.

zzeris · Apr 29, 2017

a_skeleton_02 said:
I kind of hope we have more zones like HHP valley of King Xorbb lesser Fay, the karanas, eruds crossing, West commonlands etc.

These zones are not some storyline driven plot centric adventure area but basically just ways to add danger and massiveness to the world.

They all had out of the way leveling spots and maybe some gear or quest took you there but they would always be less populated than dungeons or hotspots.

If every zone is some over designed wow zone where Everytime you go into it there is some evil corrupting the land bla bla it will make the game seem artificial.

I hope the same thing. You got a completely different experience depending on what zone you were in. Places like Kith Forest, OT, the Hole, etc, etc, etc. Give me different things to explore and don't just use the snow environment, desert environment, forest, plains, etc, etc. Make unique areas. Have some areas where there are fewer mobs. Ensure there are powerful roamers and please don't have Hill Giants, Stone Giants, Swamp Giants, etc with the exact same look except for color. I'd hate for a world with 60-70 basic mob types with variations in color supposedly adding 50-60 more. Boring design.

Arden · Apr 29, 2017

Also, apparently they are planning on level scaling buffs and items-- so powerleveling and twinking are essentially out, which is pretty disappointing.

Dullahan · Apr 29, 2017

ili said:
To many artificial limitations in today's games. Pan'Theon will be no different.
I remeber power leveling and twinking in early EQ, no stupid item and buff scaling, bullshit. No limits on item drops becuase you out level something.
Some level 50 buffs with max level damage shield and regen at level 1 and you were a god.
The acclimation system is just like another way to add bullshit artificial limitations, a keying system, saying you can't go here because you haven't looted X item yet.
Just let the fucking players do what they want, ffs, stop trying to milk people out of money by limiting what they can achieve in X amount of time.

I really think people get torqued over this without considering that progression always existed in every MMO. You couldn't just walk into the planar regions in classic EQ. You couldn't stroll into Veeshan's peak or Sleeper's Tomb. These restrictions always existed, and they existed to reward the players who had played the game.

Without proper progression, we would end up with games without levels, rigidly skill based, where everyone can access anything and your achievements lack any sense of reward. Think about Ice Comet in EQ. How little would it mean if there was no quest to obtain the spell, and we could just use it at level 1 (no level gating). It would mean shit.

I would argue that as long as the gating has some level of believability, it's okay. I'd rather have magical barriers that I die trying to get through than simply have red text that pops up on my screen telling me I'm not high enough level to do X.

It's call progression people, and without it, there would be no reason to play.

Dullahan · Apr 29, 2017

Arden said:
Also, apparently they are planning on level scaling buffs and items-- so powerleveling and twinking are essentially out, which is pretty disappointing.

I agree. They're doing that wrong. You can naturally scale items by simply adjusting the benefit of stats based on level. EQ had a natural scaling of items that allowed lower level players to benefit, without them being overpowered. You put an awesome sword on a newbie, he shredded stuff with it, but was still limited by his/her weapon skill and the benefit of stats. For instance, 10 stamina gave a level 10 warrior maybe 10-20hp. That same 10 stamina gave a level 60 warrior around 60 hp. The max damage on a 30 damage sword was still what, in the 20s or 30s? So yes, a high damage weapon with stats and a great ratio was still amazing, but it wasn't disproportionately powerful, providing a level 10 warrior with level 60 warrior dps.

The same formula could be applied to everything including items like a Fungi tunic. You simply create a regeneration skill that scales the benefit of items and spells that provide the effect.

a_skeleton_02 · Apr 29, 2017

Dullahan said:
I agree. They're doing that wrong. You can naturally scale items by simply adjusting the benefit of stats based on level. EQ had a natural scaling of items that allowed lower level players to benefit, without them being overpowered. You put an awesome sword on a newbie, he shredded stuff with it, but was still limited by his/her weapon skill and the benefit of stats. For instance, 10 stamina gave a level 10 warrior maybe 10-20hp. That same 10 stamina gave a level 60 warrior around 60 hp. The max damage on a 30 damage sword was still what, in the 20s or 30s? So yes, a high damage weapon with stats and a great ratio was still amazing, but it wasn't disproportionately powerful, providing a level 10 warrior with level 60 warrior dps.

The same formula could be applied to everything including items like a Fungi tunic. You simply create a regeneration skill that scales the benefit of items and spells that provide the effect.

That is what they are doing right?

They said the items will have lesser stats on a lower character and will grow with it. Still allows twinking if you have 8 lvl 50 items on a lvl 1 then you'll always be top tier.

ili · Apr 29, 2017

Dullahan said:
I really think people get torqued over this without considering that progression always existed in every MMO. You couldn't just walk into the planar regions in classic EQ. You couldn't stroll into Veeshan's peak or Sleeper's Tomb.

I quit EQ shortly after kunark released because someone offered me $1700 for my bard, in full banana armor.. anyways.
You could do other things like run a level 1 war/sk over to sol b and loot the no trade weapon from kobalt king that no one even wanted.
plus the planes only had a level requirement( and a wizard to get to hate ) you did not have to jump through a bunch of hoops to get entry.
Things like farming fine steel weapons and bronze armor then giving them out to newbies fighting orcs near Kelethin "Orc Lift" and selling high level buffs is what made the game great.
Shit is just not the same anymore, every goddamn thing has a limitation on it now.
Not to mention a Necro could solo to max level very quickly. Even though they were just mostly mana batteries for raids.

TheYanger · Apr 29, 2017

ili said:
I quit EQ shortly after kunark released because someone offered me $1700 for my bard, in full banana armor.. anyways.
You could do other things like run a level 1 war/sk over to sol b and loot the no trade weapon from kobalt king that no one even wanted.
plus the planes only had a level requirement( and a wizard to get to hate ) you did not have to jump through a bunch of hoops to get entry.
Things like farming fine steel weapons and bronze armor then giving them out to newbies fighting orcs near Kelethin "Orc Lift" and selling high level buffs is what made the game great.
Shit is just not the same anymore, every goddamn thing has a limitation on it now.
Not to mention a Necro could solo to max level very quickly. Even though they were just mostly mana batteries for raids.

You're fucking retarded. EQ literally had keying quests and resists and shit that you needed. This isn't any different. You're not LITERALLY prevented from trying to walk accross that bridge in the video without the resist, they tried to do it first for that very god damn reason, btu you're EFFECTIVELY prevented from doing it, and Everquest was LOADED with shit like that. If you think any differently, you're a full fucking spectrum autist.

Dullahan · Apr 29, 2017

a_skeleton_02 said:
That is what they are doing right?

They said the items will have lesser stats on a lower character and will grow with it. Still allows twinking if you have 8 lvl 50 items on a lvl 1 then you'll always be top tier.

Based on what they've said, they're directly nerfing items. There's no reason to touch items. As long as the formulas which already govern player strength via level, weapon skills, armor proficiencies, and stats do the lifting.

The end result may be similar, but reducing stats on an item is a much more artificial way of doing it. Just to note, it goes to show you how little EQ developers knew about their own game down the line. That system was already baked in, yet they went and nerfed items on top of it.

I'm all for Visionary Realms hiding information like that as well. I don't need to mouse over a weapon and see 5 stats, and then a spreadsheet of deductions (10 damage (7), 35 delay (45), +10 str (5), + 15 stamina (7) etc).

Arden · Apr 29, 2017

Things like Trivial Loot Code, item scaling, buff scaling (or blocking) and the like were exactly the kind of mechanics that signaled the end to the "golden age" of EQ. They were all unimaginative and heavy handed tactics by game devs that ultimately said to players "We want you to play the game the way we want you to play it, not the way you want to play it."

On a deeper level, they also put artificial barriers up between the player and the game world that ruin immersion. Once you start changing the properties of an item in the game depending on who's wielding it, you are signaling to players that the game world is going to adapt and change to fit YOU. That's really bad. Maybe I should emphasize that more- It's really, really fucking terrible. Don't do it.

The world is the world. Any limitations need to come from your character in the form of skills etc. NOT from changes in the game world. The Super Badass Sword of Death should still be just as super and badass no matter who's inventory it's in. Now, if I'm a lot lower level than you, I probably won't be as effective with the sword-- but that's because of character limitations, not because the sword magically changed just because I'm holding it.

The game world shouldn't "read" your player level and adapt based on that metric. The world just is. How you approach it and handle it is up to you.

Dullahan · Apr 29, 2017

Arden said:
Things like Trivial Loot Code, item scaling, buff scaling (or blocking) and the like were exactly the kind of mechanics that signaled the end to the "golden age" of EQ. They were all unimaginative and heavy handed tactics by game devs that ultimately said to players "We want you to play the game the way we want you to play it, not the way you want to play it."

On a deeper level, they also put artificial barriers up between the player and the game world that ruin immersion. Once you start changing the properties of an item in the game depending on who's wielding it, you are signaling to players that the game world is going to adapt and change to fit YOU. That's really bad. Maybe I should emphasize that more- It's really, really fucking terrible. Don't do it.

The world is the world. Any limitations need to come from your character in the form of skills etc. NOT from changes in the game world. The Super Badass Sword of Death should still be just as super and badass no matter who's inventory it's in. Now, if I'm a lot lower level than you, I probably won't be as effective with the sword-- but that's because of character limitations, not because the sword magically changed just because I'm holding it.

The game world shouldn't "read" your player level and adapt based on that metric. The world just is. How you approach it and handle it is up to you.

Precisely. Nothing to add, well said.

ili · Apr 29, 2017

TheYanger said:
You're fucking retarded. EQ literally had keying quests and resists and shit that you needed. This isn't any different. You're not LITERALLY prevented from trying to walk accross that bridge in the video without the resist, they tried to do it first for that very god damn reason, btu you're EFFECTIVELY prevented from doing it, and Everquest was LOADED with shit like that. If you think any differently, you're a full fucking spectrum autist.

Classic EQ had resist stuff yes, level locked areas, but loaded with them? no. And what fucking keying exactly, that shit didn't come till later. Unless we are talk POS key stuff that could be bypassed with corpse summoning.
My main point is power leveling friends, selling buffs and or being nice and buffing others/newbies in low level areas for fun, handing out higher up items to newbies, and twinking, is all what made EQ great. Classic EQ had it right before all the trash expansions ruined the shit out of it.
All that is partly what made the community great in EQ, people helping each other. Limit the ability for people to help each other and you ruin the fucking community.
just throwing a pile of shit game together and forcing people to group doesn't make a game with a great community

TheYanger · Apr 29, 2017

Resists. Level gated planes (I know they weren't at first, but that shit was added fairly quickly whene veryone was getting full shiverback twinks cause why not), keying, whether you could bypass it or not these were all heavily implemented things in early EQ.
Saying that resist shit in the video is the antithesis is RETARDED. Dude walked into the bridge, got buffeted by cold or whatever, was taking damage, could've kept walking if he didn't fear death. Put on some resist, and then was able to do it and not take damage. That's just some basic resistance shit, it's not artificial at all, not beyond what EQ has always done (or any other game).

It's funny that you specifically mentioned the level gated planes too and hand waved it away, that's INFINITELY more artificial than anything that was shown in this video.

a_skeleton_02 · Apr 29, 2017

People gloss over the fact that NO DROP is the original "Immersion breaking" mechanic. EQ never intended for twinking or PLing they just had no idea what they were doing at the time.

As much as it is fun to run around as an Iksar Monk with a fungi tunic being followed by a lvl 60 druid casting thorns on you (It's reaalllly fun you should try it) it really destroys the spirit of the game. Items with Recommended level seems like the perfect middle ground imo you have a shield with 50 str at lvl 50 it should be 2 str at lvl 1 and go up up up and up it should always be the BEST item in that slot though effectively twinking you.

Brad keeps talking about the Progeny system I hope it's something extreme like you delete your character and are reborn with all your gear deleted at lvl 1 but your natural stats are much higher.

Arden · Apr 29, 2017

a_skeleton_02 said:
EQ never intended for twinking or PLing they just had no idea what they were doing at the time.

Frankly what they intended is irrelevant. The result is what matters, and they should learn from that.

a_skeleton_02 said:
As much as it is fun to run around as an Iksar Monk with a fungi tunic being followed by a lvl 60 druid casting thorns on you (It's reaalllly fun you should try it) it really destroys the spirit of the game.

Destroys the spirit of the game? So you think the spirit of EQ was better represented after the implementation of all of those restrictions than it was during the original trilogy when most of those things didn't exist?

I don't think so. The spirit of EQ (as most of Pantheon's base would see it) was captured in the trilogy era prior to the most restrictive mechanics.

When the game environment changes based on your level it tells you the game is rigged. No matter what you do, there will be some sort of artificial mechanic cockblocking you in the end. Work real hard or get real lucky and get a weapon way above your level? Doesn’t matter, the game will change the weapon so that you aren’t “more powerful” than it wants you to be. Have a friend or an alt that can hook you up with sweet buffs? Doesn’t matter, the game is just going to scale things down to the point of “meh.”

Who wants to play a rigged game? Not me. Give me a game world with a static environment and let me figure out interesting and creative ways to beat it.

a_skeleton_02 · Apr 29, 2017

Arden said:
Frankly what they intended is irrelevant. The result is what matters, and they should learn from that.

Destroys the spirit of the game? So you think the spirit of EQ was better represented after the implementation of all of those restrictions than it was during the original trilogy when most of those things didn't exist?

I don't think so. The spirit of EQ (as most of Pantheon's base would see it) was captured in the trilogy era prior to the most restrictive mechanics.

When the game environment changes based on your level it tells you the game is rigged. No matter what you do, there will be some sort of artificial mechanic cockblocking you in the end. Work real hard or get real lucky and get a weapon way above your level? Doesn’t matter, the game will change the weapon so that you aren’t “more powerful” than it wants you to be. Have a friend or an alt that can hook you up with sweet buffs? Doesn’t matter, the game is just going to scale things down to the point of “meh.”

Who wants to play a rigged game? Not me. Give me a game world with a static environment and let me figure out interesting and creative ways to beat it.

You are not beating anything and you are doing nothing creative by leveling up and making an alt. I also don't think anyone here gives a fuck about how hard you can Twink your character when compared to the other things Pantheon will bring

If Pantheon comes out and it's literally the second coming of jesus but they don't let you Twink I doubt someone's going to call it a deal breaker and not play. You are splitting hairs and are stuck on some really weird thing to harp on.

When the game environment changes based on your level it tells you the game is rigged.

Newbie Zones
Level capped Zones
No Drop items
Increased Agro radius for lower levels
Resists
Quests with level requirements
Weapon Procs
Lore Items

This is all classic EQ trilogy shit that existed to limit someone's access to locations,Items,experiences by their level.

Fucking DAMAGE caps man that really lucky weapon you got? You can't hit above 20 damage with it no matter if it's damage was 10 or 200.

I've played enough classic trilogy EQ for 3 lifetimes and these rosey glasses are hilarious. We are much smarter now and can do so much better mechanic wise than "Reroll equip a high level sword and solo to 50"

Trust me you are not out thinking anything or innovating shit with that strategy and twinking is always fun for the twinker but not for the rogue that can't get a group because he doesn't have an epic at lvl 15.

ili · Apr 29, 2017

a_skeleton_02 said:
People gloss over the fact that NO DROP is the original "Immersion breaking" mechanic. EQ never intended for twinking or PLing they just had no idea what they were doing at the time.

As much as it is fun to run around as an Iksar Monk with a fungi tunic being followed by a lvl 60 druid casting thorns on you (It's reaalllly fun you should try it) it really destroys the spirit of the game. Items with Recommended level seems like the perfect middle ground imo you have a shield with 50 str at lvl 50 it should be 2 str at lvl 1 and go up up up and up it should always be the BEST item in that slot though effectively twinking you.

Brad keeps talking about the Progeny system I hope it's something extreme like you delete your character and are reborn with all your gear deleted at lvl 1 but your natural stats are much higher.

what a load of complete bullshit this is what made the game for many. if you can't see that i don't know what to tell you.
I remember high level players doing trivia in Greater faydark, and giving away prizes ( gear and money) to the winners
I remember countless people in EC buffing low level players while they sell their junk. People even used to risk the trip to EC just for the buffs. ( you can't tell me you have never done this )
I remember high level players paying low level shamans for SOW.
Being able to help your friends, guildmates, and other people because you are powerful, is a must it, it brings people together, it makes the communities stronger, and it makes a name for yourself.
High level players need to be able to interact with low level players on some level.
What happens 3 months after release when the newbie areas are barren of players, with twinking, buffing being scaled down to nothing. I'll tell you what happens the game fucking dies, quickly.

a_skeleton_02 · Apr 29, 2017

ili said:
what a load of complete bullshit this is what made the game for many. if you can't see that i don't know what to tell you.
I remember high level players doing trivia in Greater faydark, and giving away prizes ( gear and money) to the winners
I remember countless people in EC buffing low level players while they sell their junk. People even used to risk the trip to EC just for the buffs. ( you can't tell me you have never done this )
I remember high level players paying low level shamans for SOW.
Being able to help your friends, guildmates, and other people because you are powerful, is a must it, it brings people together, it makes the communities stronger, and it makes a name for yourself.
High level players need to be able to interact with low level players on some level.
What happens 3 months after release when the newbie areas are barren of players, with twinking, buffing being scaled down to nothing. I'll tell you what happens the game fucking dies, quickly.

You dense Mother fucker did you watch the stream? All of that is still going to happen.

The difference is going to be Oh I have a fungi tunic I can now stand in the middle of an orc camp and slowly punch them to death because i'm an invulnerable god to Oh I have a fungi tunic but at this level it just allows me to solo efficiently and not take on 6 guys at once.

They said a higher level item in the hands of a lower level player will not be as effective, they didn't say it won't fucking work or you can't equip it.

Also they didn't say shit about buffs, PLing will still exists because it's a good idea that requires community interaction.

What happens 3 months after release when the newbie areas are barren of players, with twinking, buffing being scaled down to nothing. I'll tell you what happens the game fucking dies, quickly.

I wish we had another MMO, a MMO that has ZERO forms of twinking and ZERO forms of power leveling so we could see how fast it dies.

Does anyone know of any MMOS like that? I mean they must be dead by now because they don't have Twinking and Power Leveling.

ZyyzYzzy · Apr 29, 2017

@a_skeleton_02 slaying the autists

ili · Apr 29, 2017

donor sucking donor dick.. oh . shit.

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Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

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