Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO
- Thread starter gogojira_sl
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Guest, it's time once again for the massively important and exciting FoH Asshat Tournament!
Go here and give us your nominations!Who's been the biggest Asshat in the last year? Give us your worst ones!
ZyyzYzzy
RIP USA
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Me and @a_skeleton_02 hate each other, but not as much as we both hate autists
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zzeris
King Turd of Shit Hill
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I can't wait until Pantheon comes out...and it's nothing like these autists want. The last few posts have been hilarious. Working hard for twink gear. That's really immersive and realistic. "hey, Tobo! Can you hold onto this fungi while I log off to this other character and then suddenly appear for you to trade?" Man, such realism. I also love hearing from a guy who sold his shit for profit early...arguing for the original amazing game immersion. Sounds like a dude that just wants to profit off the game instead of play it. Maybe they made those limitations...to limit gold farmer dudes like you.
Games are full of artificial barriers for the other dude. Level is literally a barrier. Class restrictions...barrier. Rep, hell levels, group restrictions, lack of climbing skill, etc, etc, etc. You literally mention changing item properties when certain classes can't even wield certain things. Sounds like the ridiculous whining of a dude that just couldn't hack it without the cheats being baked right in. Sorry, you just weren't good enough dude. That's the breaks. EQ developers learned what not to do...just like every other game developer in the genre.
Games are full of artificial barriers for the other dude. Level is literally a barrier. Class restrictions...barrier. Rep, hell levels, group restrictions, lack of climbing skill, etc, etc, etc. You literally mention changing item properties when certain classes can't even wield certain things. Sounds like the ridiculous whining of a dude that just couldn't hack it without the cheats being baked right in. Sorry, you just weren't good enough dude. That's the breaks. EQ developers learned what not to do...just like every other game developer in the genre.
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Arden
Blackwing Lair Raider
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None of that stuff is scaling, but if your point is that even in the original trilogy had some examples of restriction by level you are correct. There were absolutely some level requirements in ToT.
Scaling should just be thrown out entirely, and level restrictions should be as minimal as possible. At the end of the day it's that simple. Most people who liked ToT want as few artificial restrictions as possible. Item scaling, TLC, BoE, instancing, all that shit that came along after ToT pushed the game over the edge as far as restrictive mechanics. Nobody liked that shit for a reason.
If Pantheon goes down the path of over-engineering and too much mechanical restriction it literally will end up the same as all the other mediocre bullshit SOE pushed out after ToT.
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Dullahan
Golden Knight of the Realm
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I think the point is that the original game did try not to limit you where they could. Obviously having weapons proccing for more damage than a character was capable of dealing with the weapon wasn't intended, so to some degree it could be understood. In the same vein, I can understanding if they added a recovery skill that throttled the effects of regeneration.
What I don't want is to see every item and every spell nerfed based on who it's cast on. Any scaling should be done behind the scenes in the formulas.
I think the point is not necessarily each specific instance of restrictions, but the underlying philosophy which favors restriction over player freedom (or at least the appearance of freedom). If VR goes out of their way to sanitize everything, they will not succeed in recreating the game I'm expecting... and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
What I don't want is to see every item and every spell nerfed based on who it's cast on. Any scaling should be done behind the scenes in the formulas.
I think the point is not necessarily each specific instance of restrictions, but the underlying philosophy which favors restriction over player freedom (or at least the appearance of freedom). If VR goes out of their way to sanitize everything, they will not succeed in recreating the game I'm expecting... and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
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ili
Blackwing Lair Raider
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If you read the post that's blowing up about this on the official forum the majority of people feel this way. I have a feeling scaling bullshit won't make it to live. If it does it will turn a shit load of people off, that has to be the last thing that they want with a game like this.
Jarek
Molten Core Raider
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The people backing Pantheon are the very ones who've been railing against this type of restrictive game design for years. People want to be able to twink and uber-buff noobs. Scaling everything down kind of ruins that.
People want to wear overpowered gear and be able to turn newbies into temporary killing machines because it's fun. Earning the wealth to twink your alts with or the levels to buff newbies with is a rewarding experience, just as much as being on the receiving end of those buffs is.
VR is going to need to find an equilibrium between satisfying the already-paying-customer fan base, and balancing the game.
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What I want to know is, can you give weapons to mobs and have them surprise unsuspecting players?
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Dullahan
Golden Knight of the Realm
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Then again, the vast majority of Pantheon fans are for harsher death penalties and eliminating the convenience that limits broader player interaction, community and player reputation, yet VR still has still defended weak death penalties in every stream, and plans to have systems like mentoring and caravans.
Time will tell who will win out and whether they have a mandate to include such things.
Time will tell who will win out and whether they have a mandate to include such things.
Jysin
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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As said, way before "Recommended Level" items were a thing with nerfed stats, the game already had baked in damage caps from day 1. Even if you twinked a noob with a monster dmg sword, there was a cap to the max hit that raised every 10 levels. Still in game to this day, IIRC.. at least on every Emu I have seen.
The twink stuff was still unbelievably powerful, but it was nowhere near as effective as a level 60 wielding the same.
The twink stuff was still unbelievably powerful, but it was nowhere near as effective as a level 60 wielding the same.
Arden
Blackwing Lair Raider
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[bcolor=rgb(24, 24, 24)]Reply[/bcolor]
Right, but the damage caps based on character level functioned markedly different from the way scaled items worked. No one really complained about level damage caps, but the majority of people detested scaled items.
Some people don't mind scaled items. Some people also don't mind instancing, locked encounters, BoE, TLC, etc etc. I suspect that the core of Pantheon's base minds all of those things.
There is a line at which reasonable character limitation gives way to over restrictive mechanics. It's hard to say exactly where that line is, but I think a lot of people agree that scaled items/buffing and "combat mode" lockout stuff is on the wrong side of that line.
Right, but the damage caps based on character level functioned markedly different from the way scaled items worked. No one really complained about level damage caps, but the majority of people detested scaled items.
Some people don't mind scaled items. Some people also don't mind instancing, locked encounters, BoE, TLC, etc etc. I suspect that the core of Pantheon's base minds all of those things.
There is a line at which reasonable character limitation gives way to over restrictive mechanics. It's hard to say exactly where that line is, but I think a lot of people agree that scaled items/buffing and "combat mode" lockout stuff is on the wrong side of that line.
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Jysin
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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I know that, was simply pointing out that caps were in place before scaled items anyway. It was only relevant to dmg. You'd still get full stats from the weapons, but there was a cap to the damage it would produce. That said, there were very few weapons with stats before No Drop became the norm. Some great twink weaps were around in Velious, but that was about the end of it. Come Luclin+ and I don't remember too much being worthwhile.
Jarek
Molten Core Raider
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Another guy brought up a good point, that in EQ Trilogy the characters themselves were limited, but the items were not. I just realized why this is was such an important distinction: The twink's gear got better as you leveled. The power of items increased as you grew into them, rather than being set to your current level and bound there.
So by limiting the character's innate abilities instead of altering the items, you actually create an organic item leveling system in which your gear grows in power as you do. A 50 damage sword might hit for your personal damage cap of 20 at level 10, but then at level 20 it might hit for 40, until your own personal cap allowed for full damage. That same sword could then be handed down to your alt or a guildmate friend or sold at auction when you get something better.
EQ was a hybrid of class and skill based design, and limiting the character instead of the item really was a great system.
Arden
Blackwing Lair Raider
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Yeah I agree. I made that same point in an earlier post. Limitation through character skill is the best way to deal with level disparities. A level 20 shouldn't be able to do the same thing with a powerful weapon that a level 50 can do. But that limitation should come from skill level. The item itself shouldn't scale.
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Reht
Molten Core Raider
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I agree with this, i don't mind some over-inflated stats at lower levels - procs shouldn't work until you hit a certain skill level/character level threshold ala EQ's "Your will is not sufficient to command this weapon"
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EQ did have limits though. You could give your twink a yak but it wouldn't proc until level 37 so was no big deal. You would be better with a lower level weapon that had procs. And the buffs did make you a god but that was a bad thing because you ended up with 1 guy killing all of Crushbone or Befallen by himself, which meant any newbies had nothing to kill and had to go somewhere else. That's not good.
Plays an rpg, rages about keys...
Yep it should stay like that imo. There is also the issue of you being completely out of the fight during that time too. So people wouldn't do it unless they were really desperate for some other spell for that situation, but that made the game deeper. But all this stuff is subject to change anyway.
All seems possible in this game. The only difference to eq is that buffs will scale but he said they will still be helpful, so you could still stand around and sell them like the stingy dimwitted noob that you are.
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Brikker
Trump's Staff
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Tl;dr qwerty wants everyone to be as bad at video games as him
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EQ wouldn't let most weapons proc until the level limit was reached for that spell. Didn't work for everything but I see no reason why it can't be controlled more now.