Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Flobee

Vyemm Raider
2,664
3,056
I hate to be the bearer of bad news (ok not really), but what you want will never exist again, sorry. Brad isn't making it with Pantheon, even though you keep telling yourself that, and neither will anyone else ever.

What you want is to go back in time when MMORPGs were a new and exciting medium that was totally unexplored, full of magic and mystery. You want to be young again and re-experience your first kiss. That isn't, nor will it ever, happen. It can't. Mimicking poorly designed mechanics will not return you to a state of online gaming naivety, it will just make for a bad game.
I generally agree with your posts Denaut, but this argument always rubs me the wrong way. By saying that tad (and honestly, a lot of us) is chasing his 'first kiss' mmo style you are assuming that he is unable to differentiate between nostalgia and actually enjoying 'poorly designed mechanics'. While I can't speak for tad specifically on this, I will say that it is a whole hell of a lot easier than you seem to think to make this distinction. I love EQ, but I also love Daoc and a number of older MMO's. To this day I generally hop around from one old MMO to another. I have played just about every new MMO... yet I still go back to the old ones. Gee whiz... that must be because I am so enamored with that rose tint that I just cant enjoy anything new. Or you know, maybe its because older games tend to deliver content in a way that isn't insulting to my intelligence, or because they are paced at a sustainable rate instead of the manic play rate many modern games rely on.

Hell there are as many good reasons to enjoy old games as there are people that enjoy old games. Telling someone they only like a game or an idea because of nostalgia is a worn out ignorant argument... and I know you are smarter than that.
 

Furious

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
2,943
5,023
Denaut says "I got a good life thanks to Sigil and I'm not the type of guy to bad mouth my old employer"

Continues to bad mouth old employer.
 

Skanda

I'm Amod too!
6,662
4,506
No one has mentioned anything outside of EQN even considered for production.
Well, there is that mythical Vampire the Masquerade MMO that CCP keeps stuffing back into the toilet so they can try their hand at a shitty MMOFPS tie-in.
 

Quineloe

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
6,978
4,464
I hate to be the bearer of bad news (ok not really), but what you want will never exist again, sorry. Brad isn't making it with Pantheon, even though you keep telling yourself that, and neither will anyone else ever.

What you want is to go back in time when MMORPGs were a new and exciting medium that was totally unexplored, full of magic and mystery. You want to be young again and re-experience your first kiss. That isn't, nor will it ever, happen. It can't. Mimicking poorly designed mechanics will not return you to a state of online gaming naivety, it will just make for a bad game.
Explain why so many people on this board alone played some classic EQ on a private server in the last 5 years if it's just nostalgia and the experience of something never had before.
 

Denaut

Trump's Staff
2,739
1,279
Hell there are as many good reasons to enjoy old games as there are people that enjoy old games. Telling someone they only like a game or an idea because of nostalgia is a worn out ignorant argument... and I know you are smarter than that.
It is more like EQ has been remade dozens of times. It has more iterations of it than any other kind of MMORPG. The current biggest budget MMORPGs coming out soon, TESO and Wildstar, are both iterations of EQ. If, after all these tries, despite all the money and effort being thrown at them, no one has been able to match how you feel about those old school games, maybe it isn't the games themselves.
 

Denaut

Trump's Staff
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1,279
Denaut says "I got a good life thanks to Sigil and I'm not the type of guy to bad mouth my old employer"

Continues to bad mouth old employer.
Actually, I am bad mouthing you guys. Of course, offering a difference of opinion = bad-mouthing apparently.
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,518
583
Young people making games of all kinds, of which there are plenty. Instead ridiculous amounts of money go to people like Mark Jacobs, and Richard Garriot. They've had their 2nd and 3rd shots. It is just throwing good money after bad.
So troll and deliberately obtuse troll? Because I should support the next candy crush saga, which I don't play and have no desire to play instead of old school MMOs that I do okay?

How about I spend my money as I see fit, and you spend yours as you see fit. I think that works better.
 

Denaut

Trump's Staff
2,739
1,279
Explain why so many people on this board alone played some classic EQ on a private server in the last 5 years if it's just nostalgia and the experience of something never had before.
Whatever those reasons are, and I am sure they are very valid, they won't be duplicated by a new game. They can't be.
 

Flight

Molten Core Raider
1,229
288
I hate to be the bearer of bad news (ok not really), but what you want will never exist again, sorry. Brad isn't making it with Pantheon, even though you keep telling yourself that, and neither will anyone else ever.

What you want is to go back in time when MMORPGs were a new and exciting medium that was totally unexplored, full of magic and mystery. You want to be young again and re-experience your first kiss.
For a lot of us that isn't what we want. We're just looking for a group centric MMO that is driven by the designers instead of another 5 years of people being driven by profit and trying to copy all sorts of features from WoW (that was you that put loot token into AoC raiding wasn't it ?).

Damn Boozecube, can you point on the dolly where Brad and kickstarter touched you?
You don't think he's someones alt account ? Let's play hangman... U t n _ _ _ n
 

Quaid

Trump's Staff
11,751
8,192
It is more like EQ has been remade dozens of times. It has more iterations of it than any other kind of MMORPG. The current biggest budget MMORPGs coming out soon, TESO and Wildstar, are both iterations of EQ. If, after all these tries, despite all the money and effort being thrown at them, no one has been able to match how you feel about those old school games, maybe it isn't the games themselves.
You are either trolling or never played EQ before 2004. Your argument is absurd. The cheesesteak and the Reuben are both iterations of a sandwich, yet are nothing alike.

GTFO with this bullshit.
 

Denaut

Trump's Staff
2,739
1,279
So troll and deliberately obtuse troll? Because I should support the next candy crush saga, which I don't play and have no desire to play instead of old school MMOs that I do okay?

How about I spend my money as I see fit, and you spend yours as you see fit. I think that works better.
Oh, you can spend your money as you want. It doesn't mean I can't criticize you for it, and offer my opinion that it would do more good elsewhere.
 

Dahkoht_sl

shitlord
1,658
0
Apologies ahead of time for the multiple quotes , but I can't not chime in and am playing the usual catch-up.

Lol. Brad should not need any convincing. Sounds like Brad should jump on this ASAP. I agree about being honest about things across the board. Also throw in some tidbit of exclusive "heard it here first." Boogie seems excited to have Brad on. Like I said I don't know him but from what you all say brad should do this ASAP. Perhaps unveil halfling bards.
no shit, this was brads (our) idea and he initiated contact with boogie.
Ha, it's been said like four times already but he needs to be humble about all this and be genuine with Boogie. It's a good chance to win some respect and treat someone who's apparently a fan with class.
My instant thought was exactly the same. When I read "convince Brad to do an honest interview with Boogie" early KS screw ups screamed through my head. Surely to hell Brad realizes he should need no convincing and just doooo iittt. Be completely open , don't have canned answers ready. Fuck , do a reveal all on VG to now and your plans and so on. Doing that and getting this guy pushing Pantheon would bring it into stretch goal possibilities (low ones granted) if done soon and done well.

I agree with you and that's why I think this is doomed to fail (at least in the eyes of old school EQ vets), because Brad himself set it up to 'be a lot like EQ'. What that does is invite all sorts of comparisons and if it doesn't live up to it (almost impossible to do), then let the bitching commence. I do think there are a percentage (majority) whodothink and expect this to be EQ 2.0 and I think there's going to be a lot of disappointment there.
I agree with the idea that he will catch some flack during production of "you said it would be like EQ and X Y and Z aren't, LIAR!!. But I think the positives of pushing the EQ side far outweigh the negatives.

No. It hitched because it had to load all the art assets from disc - no occlusion - when you chunked. That's why SSD help a ton with performance. There were other issues but this was the bug one.
I read the earlier stuff about the Unreal Engine bit , and while I'm a Sys Engineer and know zero about programming beyond scripting (or Apple II E 10 goto 20 skiing Ascii programs ), I played the hell out of Lineage 2 and City of Heroes and if I'm not mistaken both were Unreal based engines. I always thought the Unreal Engines were great performing engines. Maybe it just didn't work well with the ideas of Vanguard , but using a prebuilt and stable engine to me seems the way to go to make an mmo.

Now , between the Boogie , GU stuff and positive signs I think I'll go ahead and jump back on the KS at the 250 range. If it continues a great trend I can up it to 375 or 500 , not going to pull it unless it goes to stupid right at the end and even then will at worst go to 45. Maybe screwing up the KS and getting screamed at for it will end up being a better learning experience instead of getting the cash thrown at him and not having to change it and learn from it.

It seems like a minor thing , but I really hope Brad and team know to not let the alpha forums/feedback turn into the sycophant level of the main 10 or so KS posters who scream YEAH AWESOME at the first word of any update. There's GOT to be allowed and discussed criticism in the closed process.

So back on the roller coaster ride here now for good at 250 , hoping to go up , worst case to 45 although I think (hope) Brad's team will continue this type of turnaround the remaining weeks.
 

Secrets

ResetEra Staff Member
1,900
1,914
Actually, I am bad mouthing you guys. Of course, offering a difference of opinion = bad-mouthing apparently.
There's a difference between having an opinion and distorting reality with your own because you had some bad experiences with the games industry.
 

Denaut

Trump's Staff
2,739
1,279
For a lot of us that isn't what we want. We're just looking for a group centric MMO that is driven by the designers instead of another 5 years of people being driven by profit and trying to copy all sorts of features from WoW (that was you that put loot token into AoC raiding wasn't it ?).
Loot was handled by the systems team.
 

Bruman

Golden Squire
1,154
0
Both Denaut and Bertox have said the same thing, which scares me a lot. I've seen the same thing on projects I've been on. Too many idea guys, who ultimately just argue and the result is different - not statistically better or worse than if you only had one or two idea guys.

Meanwhile, your people actually producing things, are much less in number, yet the project bleeds money because of all the idea guys. That's what really worries me.

And Secrets - I generally like you a lot, but you are unfortunately way off base. Yes, you can do anything with code, but on an actual project with an actual budget, when the developers themselves don't get to pick what to work on, the business many many times is not interested in performance nor bug fixing, but whatever new feature has been promised. I'm not in MMO development, but that's a fact of life no matter what sector of development you're in. You can also absolutely make a wrong decision early on, for it not to become apparent until later, and it be too expensive to ever "fix perfectly".

If you're doing it by yourself on your free time? Then you only answer to yourself. You can fix those bugs and get much closer to "perfect". But your project timeline will slip away into nothingness, the hype for your project will die (we humans are fickle idiots), and once your "perfect" code is released, noone will care.

And running a private server only costs $0 USD if you're time is worthless. For most of us, it isn't.
 

Flobee

Vyemm Raider
2,664
3,056
It is more like EQ has been remade dozens of times. It has more iterations of it than any other kind of MMORPG. The current biggest budget MMORPGs coming out soon, TESO and Wildstar, are both iterations of EQ. If, after all these tries, despite all the money and effort being thrown at them, no one has been able to match how you feel about those old school games, maybe it isn't the games themselves.
Well I can certainly agree on the point of taking a new direction with the genre. There is a lot of room for creativity and ingenuity while staying under the MMORPG umbrella. That being said I don't think that creating a solid DIKU (or eq clone if you want) is invalid. I could certainly be wrong about that, you have a solid point seeing as how it really hasn't been done yet.

I'm just less willing to stick a fork in it.
 

BoozeCube

Von Clippowicz
<Prior Amod>
50,106
293,062
Boozecube just trolls. Same post spammed over 40 pages. Him and like 4 others. I like Ut calling out bullshit but all these Johnny come lately guys just trying to shit this thread into the shaw
I would rather people think I am a troll than white knighting Brad and Crew and pretend that they are shitting gold bricks like some of you guys, or are some like of last bastion of hope for a decent MMO. The only thing I have been rehashing for the last however many pages is the fact that there is little to no accountability, and that they don't have a plan in place. It's amazing how much that gets a free pass from you guys, if it was anyone other than Brad everyone would of torn that shit down from the get go but because it's your fucking Jesus he can do no wrong. I know you guys don't read well but when they do something well I say they did a good job and will continue to support them if and when something positive comes up, but until they address certain aspects of this project I will continue to call it as I see it.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,764
617
Oh, you can spend your money as you want. It doesn't mean I can't criticize you for it, and offer my opinion that it would do more good elsewhere.
IMO.. EQN is really the only mmo coming out for me, that's offering something so new, it's worth spending money on.. That assuming a lot about features we don't have full details on too..