Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Iannis_sl said:

I think the primary problem is that you were playing Vanguard. That game is just not good. No trolling, it's just not good. Bloodmage and OT/DT were the good things about vanguard. That's the complete list.

The problem is also the playerbase. You don't have the hardcore online D&D nerds like you used to. They're still there, but the genre no longer has them. They've moved to console FPS, not Elfses and Swerds.

That dumb shit you describe happens in every MMO. But the really important thing is that if you throw a hard encounter at a group of those people they can't compete and they quit, even when it's fun to lose. EQ sadistically punished bad players, WoW realized that casual money spends just as well as uberduber, and no one has really had much of an idea of what to do since. Besides EVE. If only eve weren't such a boring game!

So I guess what I want is a fun version of EVE. Skin it however you want. Fantasy, Sci-fi, Steampunk, Pseudo-modern adderal deranged Day-Trader game. The skin is less important than the internal integrity.

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I agree 100%. But thats what I hope this game could be. If a hardcore D&D nerd makes a game for other hardcore D&D nerds, maybe they will all come back out the woodwork? They might all be older now and married and kids or whatever, but that's fine, all the middle aged people I know are bored and live very structured lives, work 9-5 and get home eat, and then just vegetate all evening - a time that could be spent getting their game on.

But the entire genre now is console button bashing derp. But again, that's good. Because it means if ONE good hardcore nerdy style mmo comes along, it will have no real competition. EQ is long dead, Vanguard got butchered in to something lame and was never that great to begin with, so there is really nothing for that type of gamer to play. Maybe they have all moved on. But someone has to take one for the team and make a game for that audience. It might end up peaking at 100,000 people and thats all thats left. But you never know. The 550,000 in EQ's peak, they might still be hanging around waiting - like I am and many in this thread are the same I think. And maybe if just 2% of the 14 million that was in WoW's peak are now in their 20's and want to try something hardcore for a change. This game could be the one little niche option for people.

Thats the weird thing about this whole situation. A niche by definition might be a minority, but theres not even ONE game that tries to satisfy that niche (except maybe Eve but thats a bit different). For all SOE's history, they clearly dont care about that niche. Nobody does. So if one company gave it a shot, it could be quite popular seeing as its the only one.

Actually, if you consider kunark and velious, his track record is pretty awesome

exactly, go for that niche pie. And dont get distracted by all the industry obsession with high end graphics, cutscenes, quicktime events, streamlining, and all the other stupid shit this games industry does. People havebeen sayign this for years. This is the first time someone in the industry seems to have the same idea.

Want

• Slow progression, not this 1 week to max rush bullshit. I could live with no levels game too but I just generally love leveling if it's well done.
• Unique classes with strengths and weaknesses. Can't do everything with 1 class.
• Dangerous world starting from level 1.
• Grouping > soloing
• Contested dungeons. Mix of contested and instanced content is fine.

Don't want

• Gear upgrades handed every 2 hours.
• Hard coded factions.
• Quest hubs with million bear ass quests.
• Overworld areas with strict level brackets. Let noob zones have higher level mobs so people at different levels mix.

Tmac47_sl said:

Well, again, it has a lot more to do with misguided focus than the "industry" being stupid.

There needs to be more focus on increasing player's abilities to participate in the world and create an internal type of content that can play out instead of putting such a lazer focus on static content like quests. EvE does this so well and yet no one has tried to pull it into the fantasy genre.

Why? Because they're cloning the wrong parts of WoW. They should be cloning the server stability and general shininess of the coding, but instead they try to compete with the "game mechanics" of biggest fish in the sea. Which is, as we can all agree, stupid.

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I think its just the bosses who are stupid/misguided. They are so sure that crapping out happy meal games is the best return. I'm sure many of the people in the industry are still good at making games and full of great ideas, they just can't do it when their company is dead set on making the next cartoony blast to 50 in a month mmo.

One thing I wondered is why there's never been difficulty levels, they could just do it with server rulesets. Have "normal" servers, and then "easy" servers for people new to MMO's and make it WoW-ish, and then "hardcore" servers where the mobs kick your ass and maybe longer progression.

I know it might suck to play on the hardcore server and keep hearing stuff on the web about what people have uncovered on the easier servers, but still, I remember in EQ that my server was its own little universe. Most people didnt care what was happening on other servers and spoilers are avoidable too if you really want to. But the upside is that your game could potentially satisfy many different types of gamer.

Yeah, alternate server rulesets seems to be an obvious way to customize your product to differing markets. I don't understand it either. The most likely answer to the question of why they don't do that is along the lines of, "Gee guys. That sounds an awful lot like work."

It's just not how the business structure behind these games operate. Monolithic, not at all nimble.

Yeah, alternate server rulesets seems to be an obvious way to customize your product to differing markets. I don't understand it either. The most likely answer to the question of why they don't do that is along the lines of, "Gee guys. That sounds an awful lot like work."

It's just not how the business structure behind these games operate. Monolithic, not at all nimble.

Kharza-kzad_sl said:

I don't want to need 5 hotbars. Also make abilities have a cadence so I can watch the screen instead of the UI. Or maybe just have abilities only be used to respond to something and let autoattack do its thing I dunno.

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That's my preference as well, GW2 style: 10 skills, some of them utilities, some combat oriented or a mix of both, most of the damage comes either from autoattack or a from a very short cd skill (100b, lava font). Of course when I say GW2, I'd say GW2 done correctly and not stomp keys, put everything on CD, swap weapon, repeat, rinse and repeat again.

WoW with 1 hotbar?

Fish1_sl said:

Wall of text hits your for 1 damage.

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Your combat scenario exists in any game where a characters has 100 abilities and 5 hotbars. What you basically want is to give players a myriad of skills to use because some creatures might be resistant to some and not others.

Here's the problem, once someone does this dungeons once then everyone on the internet knows the resistances. Even if you never look at a website or a forum, you'll learn the first time and the second, you just don't cast fire spells anymore in the Dungeon of Fire Elementals. I really don't see any special type of combat here, the scenario can describe any dungeon experience I've gone through in almost any MMORPG in the last decade. Especially in a new game where you really don't know what to expect.

Rift did difficult dungeons in the beginning but then they were nerfed. I'd be happy to go with that level of difficulty again.

As for Free to Play, you really really under appreciate how much people spend on cosmetic shit or extra bag space or whatever. Games make a killing with that kind of thing. Just look at dopey things like Candy Crush.

shabushabu_sl said:

want:


Do not want:

Another take on the freakin action MMO crap. THERE ARE ENOUGH.

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There's really only one and a half games that are "action combat". That's TERA and the half is GW2 because it's a hybrid of tab target and action combat. Unless you want to start counting some Korean games or F2P games like Dragon's Nest or other hybrids like NEverwinter.

shabushabu_sl said:

Vanguard had a rough implementation for sure, however I have not seen an MMO with better dungeons, world design, classes. ( crafting almost but swg wins that for me ) since well do the math.... But yes the stairs sucked !

and yes the Bloodmage was my favorite class, of all time in ANY MMO so i get that.

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The only thing VG did well was classes. World Design? There were areas that were really cool, and there were areas that were really bad. I wouldn't label it best in class but it had it's highlights. I disagree with the dungeon design, but I didn't do any dungeons past Tsang's so I didn't see a lot of them. If you're comparing them to WOW's shitty dungeon design, you're probably right, but they're not better than WOW's raid design though (from what I"ve seen which is not much either so others can correct me).

Classes, well I agree there. VG had a really fantastic class design. Probably the most interesting I've seen and probably will see for a while. For example, Wildstar's class design will be most likely mediocre unless they change a lot.

Since everyone else is doing it, I'll give my wants and desires:

Wants:

• A large world that is not build into areas for level groups. Like making five 1-20 areas. Then 3x 20-30 areas then 2x 30-40 areas then 1x 40-50 area. You should be able to see and experience high level content from the sideline as you progress. Zones should not be completely used up because you out leveled them. This segregates population. Harder to design for sure, but pays off in the end.
• I'm ok with the holy trinity. Without going into combat design and resource management design documents, I would like to see a robust class system that relies on interesting themes instead of Rogue, Warrior, Mage, Healer
• A item system that is hand made. You already get hand made items from dungeons. Everything should be like this. Also add in fancy colors and graphics to item descriptions. (See Don't Wants)
• A character progression system that you can customize. I want to be able to customize stats, skills, gear, talents, whatever. Think Path of Exile or some of the later Final Fantasys.
• Limited skill sets. I love deck building, so I want to be able to customize my skill bar and bring a set of abilities into combat. See: Wildstar. I just hope the skill sets are robust and interesting enough. No more 5 hotbars and 50 abilities all the time.

Do Not Wants:

• No levels. Figure out a different metric for progression. No more grinding 10 units of time for each level. Think of something else. Make it achivement based. Let me play the game and progress rather than just ding ding ding ding done. Grand Theft Auto managed to do it somehow.
• No more color coded gear. No more Green < Blue < Purple stuff. Gear is gear. Figure it out.
• No over used resource systems for classes. If you're a rogue, please make it so I'm not just a energy/combo point based class. Shit figure something else out.
• No more quest/task treadmills. Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuck stopit.

I don't feel like writing more. I just want a game that has it's mix of difficult and easy content. A good mix of group and solo content. A game that doesn't try to be both a PVP game and a PVE game. Pick one and design for it. I probably can go on and on writing but whatevs. I'm tired.

Tmac47_sl said:

Yes. This is another area where games should be cloning WoW, yet don't.

I think one of the biggest problems with combat that includes 15+ buttons you could press at any given time, is that the skill curve is far too great. The average player is never going to have the time to dedicate to getting it all down pat or even the desire to do so.

By eliminating a built-in barrier to mastering your class (bunch o' skills) and reducing it to a number like 10, you give players a much more level playing field. This means that more players can master the game and get a sense of getting the most out of their class. Simplifications like this really make games more enjoyable.

I'll end with a quote I believe combat designers should take to heart, "It's not done when you're finished adding elements. It's done when you can no longer take anything away."

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The number of skills does not equate to skill. Just look at games like DOTA or LOL. You get 6 skills: three short cooldown abilities (1-20 seconds) and one long cooldown ability (around 60 seconds) and two really long cooldowns (90-200+ seconds) along with some clicky items sometimes on a minute cooldown that you don't always get.

There is a high skill cap just using those small amount of skills, I'd like to see that replicated.

Miele_sl said:

That's my preference as well, GW2 style: 10 skills, some of them utilities, some combat oriented or a mix of both, most of the damage comes either from autoattack or a from a very short cd skill (100b, lava font). Of course when I say GW2, I'd say GW2 done correctly and not stomp keys, put everything on CD, swap weapon, repeat, rinse and repeat again.

WoW with 1 hotbar?

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You know what I hate about recent games?
Is too much symmetry.

I don't want EVERY class to have 10 skills.
I don't want classes to feel/look the same at all.

Another good thing about EverQuest is when casters have bazzilions of spells (Which they can only use 8 of them at the same time) melee classes have very few skills.
Bards uses their "spells" differently; twisting.

I don't want predictable game mechanics. I want things to feel odd and asymmetrical. Because perfectly refined systems and mechanics feels too gamy to me.

I want one class to solo better than others. I want a class to group better than others. I want a class to be able to travel better than others.
Variety, Variety is the key. Push variety and uncertainty to the limit.

Laura_sl said:

You know what I hate about recent games?
Is too much symmetry.

I don't want EVERY class to have 10 skills.
I don't want classes to feel/look the same at all.

Another good thing about EverQuest is when casters have bazzilions of spells (Which they can only use 8 of them at the same time) melee classes have very few skills.
Bards uses their "spells" differently; twisting.

I don't want predictable game mechanics. I want things to feel odd and asymmetrical. Because perfectly refined systems and mechanics feels too gamy to me.

I want one class to solo better than others. I want a class to group better than others. I want a class to be able to travel better than others.
Variety, Variety is the key. Push variety and uncertainty to the limit.

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yea, I'm for this too. I'd like them to add crafter items tho to close the gaps in regards to some of this stuff. That way there is an option to things like travel. A wizard could leave a port stone on his vendor for a 1 time trip or a Warrior could buy a healing or DPS pet that has a 1 time charge and also draws a lot of aggro since it recycles heals/dps asap. Little things like that.. The class you're trying to replace would be required in order to make the item.. for instance the healer pet can't be made without a healer casting some kind of spell on an item, or a corpse retrieval kit can't be made without the Necro class. That way the classes are needed, they still make money from their unique ability. Plus make these things rare enough that crafters still make good $$ on them and they don't overwhelm the market place.

sigh too many new bright ideas destined to fail. let them clone everquest 1999-2001 first ask questions later.