Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

  • Guest, it's time once again for the massively important and exciting FoH Asshat Tournament!



    Go here and give us your nominations!
    Who's been the biggest Asshat in the last year? Give us your worst ones!

Torrid

Molten Core Raider
926
611
Sitting in front of a PoP box. A bold strategy. I know most of us here are fairly hardcore (or at least were back in '01-'02) but for the majority of players, PoP was getting raped on the valor trials for 6 months until they gave them the pity flags.
Funny. On Al'Kabor I beat the trial of execution, 6 boxing, by pulling mobs to a corner and spamming PBAoEs, having casters tank the mobs who were wearing several pieces of 2g vendor cloth and adviser robes.

Some of the other trials were pretty brutal (flame) but if you couldn't get into PoValor you were bad.
 

Erronius

<WoW Guild Officer>
<Gold Donor>
17,239
44,595
It's a bad sign when your fucking Kickstarter page needs a miracle patch to get finished in time.
 

Agraza

Registered Hutt
6,890
521
I loved the flagging process. I liked it much more than the gear checks along the way. Backflagging was the only bad part. They should have had single group alternatives for flagging into higher zones. Even if it was some anal shit involving begging, disarm, and jewelcrafting it would be better than nothing.
 

gogojira_sl

shitlord
2,202
3
Better to take some time on the pitch than to rush this shit out and have it flop on day one. We'll see, hopefully this means a deeper look into what's going on behind closed doors. The whole point of Kickstarter is open development and communication with your backers, hopefully that's the route he goes.
 

Heallun

Lord Nagafen Raider
1,100
1,073
Funny. On Al'Kabor I beat the trial of execution, 6 boxing, by pulling mobs to a corner and spamming PBAoEs, having casters tank the mobs who were wearing several pieces of 2g vendor cloth and adviser robes.

Some of the other trials were pretty brutal (flame) but if you couldn't get into PoValor you were bad.
Yeah, but people in EQ outside of raid guilds were usually EXCEPTIONALLY bad. And they congregated in shitty guilds who wouldn't call them on their pathetic play, too :p
 

Heallun

Lord Nagafen Raider
1,100
1,073
I loved the flagging process. I liked it much more than the gear checks along the way. Backflagging was the only bad part. They should have had single group alternatives for flagging into higher zones. Even if it was some anal shit involving begging, disarm, and jewelcrafting it would be better than nothing.
Raid flagging would've been so much better had it been done on a guild by guild basis. When your guild beat X, guild is flagged for X, everyone in that guild can move beyond :p
 

Siddar

Bronze Baronet of the Realm
6,457
6,003
Funny. On Al'Kabor I beat the trial of execution, 6 boxing, by pulling mobs to a corner and spamming PBAoEs, having casters tank the mobs who were wearing several pieces of 2g vendor cloth and adviser robes.

Some of the other trials were pretty brutal (flame) but if you couldn't get into PoValor you were bad.
Problem with PoJ trials was they weren't tuned for the groupers just hitting PoP. Lev 60s in group gear found them to hard because of poor gear. Raiders in VT gear and weapons simply walked over them because they had 100hp and 125hp gear while groups were going OMG did you see that 35hp earring that dropped off one of mobs on our tenth failed attempt. Then you had the fact that holy trinity + DPS of group geared players could beat exe trial Cleric, Warrior, Enchanter, Wizard, Rogue(with epic) could get through trials at around level 61 while group geared players of the other classes were failing over and over again. Largely because of level once you hit 65 those trials weren't that hard. But you were locked in four zones until you beat them. PoJ had allot of greens and lite blues even at 60. PoI and PoN was decent until 62-63 then exp rate dropped off. PoD was just a horrible zone outside the castle area and the castle was built for level 65s not level 60s. Outside the castle the zone has the appearance of a giant infected vagina crawling with large agro range bugs and slimes.

So people wanted out of first tier of PoP fast and those trials seemed to have been tuned for level 65 groupers not the level 60 ones that beat there head against them for far to long.

Then GoD came out and people found out trials being repeated again in GoD just much much harder. That was the final straw for many. I know a huge number of players quit right at that point because they were never going to do PoJ trials again.
 

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
2,385
277
I don't know how you can say this. Killing the same guy over and over to grind for that one drop you were wanting doesn't seem like the same scene played over and over and over? I mean, when I ground the same 5-8 mobs over and over while sitting in basically the same areas, it never quite felt like "wow, this is some new shit right here!" Especially since these guys repoped at a given timeframe outside of placeholders. Hell, I killed the same orcs for belts over and over for the exact same rewards with almost all of my alts. Felt no different.
Both sitting in a room camping and clearing through an instance to start over is made more interesting by unexpected things happening.

In EQ that was respawns/roamers that you didnt account for maybe because they spawn elsewhere, and trains. In instanced dungeon runs it could still be respawns or random spawns, except something like that doesnt exist in dungeon design in 2013. Vanilla WoW had a token group of elites that spawned behind you and wandered through the deadmines, but instead of embracing some variety like that and adding more it was stomped out.
 

Gecko_sl

shitlord
1,482
0
Both sitting in a room camping and clearing through an instance to start over is made more interesting by unexpected things happening.

In EQ that was respawns/roamers that you didnt account for maybe because they spawn elsewhere, and trains. In instanced dungeon runs it could still be respawns or random spawns, except something like that doesnt exist in dungeon design in 2013. Vanilla WoW had a token group of elites that spawned behind you and wandered through the deadmines, but instead of embracing some variety like that and adding more it was stomped out.
The grinding, the roamers, and the trains didn't make it interesting. It was more pavlovian. The only thing different was the overt danger.

I'd rather never do another daily dungeon or camp again, personally. How fucking hard is it to make dungeon contents actually change and to move things around?
 

zzeris

King Turd of Shit Hill
<Gold Donor>
20,298
86,093
The grinding, the roamers, and the trains didn't make it interesting. It was more pavlovian. The only thing different was the overt danger.

I'd rather never do another daily dungeon or camp again, personally. How fucking hard is it to make dungeon contents actually change and to move things around?
Exactly. I'd rather move forward than consider a couple roamers as the variety of my gaming experience. I'm all for variety but lets try and improve the model now. EQN looks like it may actually make things interesting and I'd love to see if Brad will also attempt this.
 

Bruman

Golden Squire
1,154
0
How fucking hard is it to make dungeon contents actually change and to move things around?
To keep it in an interesting way as a type of fake "new-content" that people don't immediately realize the mechanics behind and trivialize it, or go all out with procedurally doing things?

Very, very fucking difficult.

We really enjoy seeing something brand new. Even if you move around named mobs, or go the tileset route to give us new looking dungeons every time, we still know it's the same set pieces every time. That will help the longevity of things, sure, but it'll never replace new hand-crafted expensive content. Minecraft is all 100% new everytime, but it still feels "been there, done that" after enough hours with it.
 

Dahkoht_sl

shitlord
1,658
0
I just prefer open world grinding over repeated same dungeon runs.

In the EQ example I could pick to go somewhere solo in some far off zone and at least be in a different setting. Choose to kite some mob in some zone one day another later and so on. This was at least variety in the setting.

When you throw in mixed level mobs in an area , other groups and players hunting and pulling , and unleashed pissed off mobs it can have things happen that no script in a dungeon can.

I guess I just rather run around in a virtual world in different environments than do the same few dungeon settings repeatedly.

And specifically this is Mcquaids niche and non blockbuster budget mmo, I'm hoping he leaves reinventing the wheel to the others and just put out something much closer to launch EQ/VG style.
 

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
2,385
277
Exactly. I'd rather move forward than consider a couple roamers as the variety of my gaming experience. I'm all for variety but lets try and improve the model now. EQN looks like it may actually make things interesting and I'd love to see if Brad will also attempt this.
Well considering the scope and audience of this project (if it ever gets kickstarted), vastly changing and improving the formula is unlikely to happen. Given this frame I think enough roamers and random spawns to break monotony is as good as it gets. I try to keep my faint hopes for a genre revolution confined to the EQN thread.
 

etchazz

Trakanon Raider
2,707
1,056
just give me sprawling, non linear dungeons (i'm talking huge fucking dungeons) with enough content for at least 10 groups to comfortably be in the dungeon at the same time (no instancing) and some rare mobs with ultra rare loot, maybe a raid boss or 2 thrown in there somewhere, and boom, i'm satisfied.
 

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
2,385
277
just give me sprawling, non linear dungeons (i'm talking huge fucking dungeons) with enough content for at least 10 groups to comfortably be in the dungeon at the same time (no instancing) and some rare mobs with ultra rare loot, maybe a raid boss or 2 thrown in there somewhere, and boom, i'm satisfied.
On the surface that sounds right and I'm on board because you *assume* it to be like Everquest then. But you can do your entire paragraph there without roamers and a big enough dungeon that respawn is an hour and you never encounter problems due to that. And each room containing exactly one, tailored-to-a-standard-party group of linked mobs that reset if they leave the room. Bite-sized encounters in a chain. Do you really want that? Hell no.

Fast respawns and odd roamers with long paths that you cannot really expect or time to the minute are essential for a good camping/crawling dungeon imo. But I see nobody bring that up, ever.
 

etchazz

Trakanon Raider
2,707
1,056
On the surface that sounds right and I'm on board because you *assume* it to be like Everquest then. But you can do your entire paragraph there without roamers and a big enough dungeon that respawn is an hour and you never encounter problems due to that. And each room containing exactly one, tailored-to-a-standard-party group of linked mobs that reset if they leave the room. Bite-sized encounters in a chain. Do you really want that? Hell no.

Fast respawns and odd roamers with long paths that you cannot really expect or time to the minute are essential for a good camping/crawling dungeon imo. But I see nobody bring that up, ever.
good point. add what you said into what i said, and it would be even better. also, it is almost 2014, so smarter NPC's would also make for a better dungeon crawl experience.
 

popsicledeath

Potato del Grande
7,547
11,831
Is it possible that the magic of EQ really was in the [at times excessive] downtime?! It gave people a chance to talk and get to know one another, etc, dead horse. And honestly, the most exciting EQ combat ever got was when someone was afk, not paying attention, or in the middle of chatting when roamers or respawns hit. Nothing more exciting than your chanter spamming chat with 11111111111 as mobs rape your healer. And who doesn't remember respawns with an AFK tank? Oh no, the healer fell asleep waiting 15 minutes for repops!

In conclusion, Brad's game needs to restrict voice chat so people get stuck typing, have long respawns so people get lured into going afk, or better yet just make it so people are prone to falling asleep, which I've not seen done more than in EQ! Dynamic content is created by the players, my friends!