Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

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Laura

Laura

Lord Nagafen Raider
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Erronius_sl said:
You know, I never heard anyone say that, ever, while people were still playing EQ1.
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Give me an example of itemization done right from any MMORPG you played.
Mine would be EverQuest. Yours is?
I'm not saying EQ was perfect but I'm just saying EQ was the best so far from what I've experienced.

Mr Creed_sl said:
EQ itemization was done was as random as it gets. Coupled with knowing fuck-all about how stats work it was a pretty funny really. The entirely item-level based streamlined itemization of modern MMOs isnt all that great either though. Basically I'd want some mix-up between power levels, different meaningful stats and all wearable items have the same color. Color-code crafting mats and quest items different if you like, but screw the common/uncommon/rare/epic color coding, we arent that retarded.
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I simply don't want to play a game with itemization inspired from Diablo 1996 or Diablo 2.
I don't want to see tiers and I don't want to see obvious patterns.
I don't want to see "randomly" generated items based on formulas and item level/strength.

I want every single item to be designed individually by the designers. Keep them limited but related to the lore. I don't need thousands of items artificially generated just because we need to loot a shit load of them every minute.
 
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Gecko_sl

shitlord
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EQs items taken from AD&D/DIKU were cool. EQ's itemization system itself was not very good. The items themselves were interesting mainly due to scarcity and nerfing. I do dislike the loot pinata system of item development, but I think random items spawning on non camps is far, far better and more interesting a mechanic then just getting stuff off named spawns over long camps.

I think there's room for a lot of improvement for items and mechanics. What we need is less of the 1% <of mobs> controlling everything and more hope and change <dynamic ways of getting things, but some scarcity and no static spawns>. WOW was a step in the right direction, but everything since has really been poorly implemented. I like when items have meaning. I played a lot of Rift, but I don't have any idea what any of my characters was wielding. I know all the weapons my rogue had in his bag in 2001 when I quit EQ.
 
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Dahkoht_sl

shitlord
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I usually agree with Laura on most gameplay aspects , but I've got to say I still rather see some sort of ultra rare world drops mixed in in addition to placed lore type items and mobs.

The combination of the lotto feeling at all times even if ultra low chances and the idea that items aren't always in a static place on a certain mob trump lore for me in this case.

Every once in a great while , hearing someone scream out in chat about that ultra high elite weapon that dropped off a random mob they were hunting ( and who says an Orc warrior couldn't have looted that at some battle in the past ) is just fun overall to me.
 
Jysin

Jysin

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Dahkoht_sl said:
I usually agree with Laura on most gameplay aspects , but I've got to say I still rather see some sort of ultra rare world drops mixed in in addition to placed lore type items and mobs.

The combination of the lotto feeling at all times even if ultra low chances and the idea that items aren't always in a static place on a certain mob trump lore for me in this case.

Every once in a great while , hearing someone scream out in chat about that ultra high elite weapon that dropped off a random mob they were hunting ( and who says an Orc warrior couldn't have looted that at some battle in the past ) is just fun overall to me.
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Perfect example of this that I can think of would be the Runebranded Girdle in Sebilis off of Krup frogs. They wereextremelyrare, yet still extremely valuable and useful. Not quite Dragon haste level, but the next best thing IIRC. One I particularly remember running across was fighting back to our corpses after a Disco camp wipe. After all the blood sweat and tears to CR with banked gear and no rogue drag or necro summon and we were rewarded along the way with an RBG drop. Lifted everyone's spirits and here I am 13 odd years later remembering every bit of that experience.

+1 to the Ultra rare world drops for me.
 
Mr Creed

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
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There's little lore behind most old EQ loot so if we could just call this nostalgia topic something else that'd be great! Handcrafted maybe?
 
Erronius

Erronius

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Laura_sl said:
Give me an example of itemization done right from any MMORPG you played.
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That's a terrible question because there is no such thing.


Laura_sl said:
I want every single item to be designed individually by the designers. Keep them limited but related to the lore. I don't need thousands of items artificially generated just because we need to loot a shit load of them every minute.
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While EQ1 didn't"automatically generate"items, they may as well have past a certain point. You could look at gear when a new xpac came out and literally see that the new gear was"old gear + new stat range + new name".

You're looking for a level of attention to design that normally only exists early on in a game's lifespan, EQ1 included. Your expectation here just isn't realistic: EQ1 stopped "individually designing" items as such early on and it wasn't long before they just started adding +stats to items every tier.

rrr_img_51271.jpg
 
Mr Creed

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
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Classic, Kunark and the first bits of velious appeared to have random power levels/quality. From Luclin onward it was stratified and tiered, and WoW loot was copied from EQ mostly unless you were one of those people that wore "of the owl" gear in WoW. Nearly everything that mattered in both WoW and EQ dropped from specific mobs in dungeons/raids.
 
Ambiturner

Ambiturner

Ssraeszha Raider
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Monk plane of fear gear was much worse than what they would have by level 30. That's just absolutely terrible itemization. I think they even had things like +Wis on them
 
Jysin

Jysin

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Ambiturner_sl said:
Monk plane of fear gear was much worse than what they would have by level 30. That's just absolutely terrible itemization. I think they even had things like +Wis on them
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Indicolite (warrior) PoH gear had +int and +cha on the helm. +wis and +int on the boots, etc.
 
Soygen

Soygen

The Dirty Dozen For the Price of One
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Ambiturner_sl said:
Monk plane of fear gear was much worse than what they would have by level 30. That's just absolutely terrible itemization. I think they even had things like +Wis on them
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Haha. Shiverback was the worst. Monk itemization was just plain terrible until Velious and even then we were almost always relegated to all/all stuff with low weights(for our shitty ac "bonus").
 
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Dumar_sl

shitlord
3,712
4
Good itemization doesn't mean the the best or most efficient stats for a class. That screams formulaic, algorithmic. It'sgoodthat monk gear had wis on it even if wis was mostly worthless to a monk. You could argue that wis should've been made useful in some form or fashion, but you shouldn't argue for no wis on monk items.

WoW has the absolute worst items of almost any game I've ever played. I played from launch day up until MoP, and I could probably name 10 items. There's no way I could tell you the stats on any of them.

Compared to EQ to Velious, I could probably name over 30 with stats.
 
Flipmode

Flipmode

EQOA Refugee
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Dumar_sl said:
Good itemization doesn't mean the the best or most efficient stats for a class. That screams formulaic, algorithmic. It'sgoodthat monk gear had wis on it even if wis was mostly worthless to a monk. You could argue that wis should've been made useful in some form or fashion, but you shouldn't argue for no wis on monk items.

WoW has the absolute worst items of almost any game I've ever played. I played from launch day up until MoP, and I could probably name 10 items. There's no way I could tell you the stats on any of them.

Compared to EQ to Velious, I could probably name over 30 with stats.
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Ok why is it good to have a stat on a piece of monk gear even if they get no benefit from it? To that's absurd unless there was some sort if alternate build that benefited the monk that utilizes wisdom.

Am I misunderstanding you?
 
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Dumar_sl

shitlord
3,712
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Well, the criticism shouldn't be that a worthless stat is on a piece of monk loot. The criticism, if any, should be why can no one use that item or why is wis not useful to a monk in any situation.

Loot shouldn't purely just be progressively +gooder stats. That's WoWification of the genre. I mean the point is yourememberthat loot to this day, even if it was worthless. Almost the entirety of the useful loot in WoW is forgotten.
 
zzeris

zzeris

King Turd of Shit Hill
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The biggest reason loot was remembered was the rarity of really good loot at that time. I'd love to see rarity come back and hope to see item progression minimized as a primary form of character improvement in the future. It's easy and noticeable, so I doubt that happens but I'm hoping that EQN goes a different route. I like skills being emphasized so that levels and loot aren't the primary forms of progression. Maybe then, unique loot will come back that changes how you might play your character. + gooder loot happens to all games as they age because it IS the visible and viable advancement option in games today. And it's really overdone at this point.
 
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Tol_sl

shitlord
759
0
Another thing is that gear inflated slower, and there was no bind on pickup/equip early on. That FBSS would be treasured by a casual player, passed down through multiple alts, and then finally sold sometime in luclin to a newer player just as eager to get their hands on it. In recent games, you A) use an item for like half of a level, at the rate they throw gear at you from quest hubs B) can't reuse it, and can't resell it. I used some of my items for like, 10-15 levels, easily, and it wasn't utterly trivialized by the first expansion. Most people who made alts, even in luclin and pop, would have a mishmash collection of stuff from classsic, kunark, and velious at low levels. This is definitely a thing I miss.
 
Flipmode

Flipmode

EQOA Refugee
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So how would you combat botters in a game like this? They could essentially perma camp all contested mobs and sell the drops to players essentially locking the rest out of content.

Maybe the issue wasn't has big or pronounced back then but it certainly is now. Aside from an FFA PVP server, this could be a real issue.
 
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Tol_sl

shitlord
759
0
Flipmode_sl said:
So how would you combat botters in a game like this?
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I don't have a good answer except, "pvp", honestly. There was always a gold farmer presence in EQ, but these days I log into shit like wow or diablo3 and I get 4-5 spam mails a day. It's kind of infuriating that our games turned into an industry at the expense of players. I'm not really sure how to design around them. It would be nice to have a playground without botters and gold sellers playing 24/7 and shitting up the game.
 
zzeris

zzeris

King Turd of Shit Hill
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Flipmode_sl said:
So how would you combat botters in a game like this? They could essentially perma camp all contested mobs and sell the drops to players essentially locking the rest out of content.

Maybe the issue wasn't has big or pronounced back then but it certainly is now. Aside from an FFA PVP server, this could be a real issue.
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There are several solutions that I prefer. One is random loot drops. If gear isn't the primary goal, then decent loot spread out over the world is just fine. A game that doesn't emphasize +gooder doesn't need a constant loot pi?ata everywhere with competitive stats. Decent stats are ok until you get into top areas like all games. Have a few items drop off raid bosses, world bosses,etc. Have very few off dungeon bosses. Slow the loot pi?ata down and encourage the grouping for top gear. Bots don't group so they have to try and corner the tradeskill market, get lucky, or find other forms of schemes. Slow loot drops keeps the top 10% from getting too powerful too quickly. Will these players get bored? Probably but they always do. They will still do high end stuff if it's kept interesting.
 
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