Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
2,394
287
Yes I would like to see this as well. Games like WoW and EQ are just two sides of the same coin. They both took it too far. This is probably the biggest reason that of the big three classics (EQ, UO and DAoC) I am the least excited for EQ. It doesn't really bring anything fresh back to the genre. It is just WoW + loads of tedium. Ultima Online, and DAoC both had gameplay that was unique for their time, and I think both can translate well into modern games.

I guess we will see what Garriott and Jacobs produce from KS. If both of those fail miserably that might be the end of revisiting old school for quite some time.
VERY generally speaking, UO is EVE, EQ is WoW... I havent played DaoC but I think it's strength was a certain amount of faction/realm pride and identity that will fall apart when faced with the expectations of modern gamers, I'm expecting that game to stay niche or faceplant.
 

Big Flex

Fitness Fascist
4,314
3,166
For the record I'm glad they are charging for forum access. I want Brad to squeeze every last cent he can out of these people before they finally call it quits. The more they get the funnier this becomes.
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It will live on into the ages of neckbeard lore
 

Lost Ranger_sl

shitlord
1,027
4
You know you guys will end up there eventually.. It's heaven on the interwebs!
I honestly don't think I could stomach it. I only read the KS comment section a few times and each time I did I left feeling like I needed a shower. Some of the quotes that have been shared here made me roll my eyes so hard I almost injured myself. I can't imagine the official forums will be any different.
 

BoozeCube

The Wokest
<Prior Amod>
54,539
324,130
Visionary Realms, Inc. about 1 hour ago

@Semper Heh yeah I feel bad bout that but I think DK was one of the classes I wanted to revisit once we had worked out the rest of the launch classes.
It seems the feedback on the Dark Knight has finally sunken in, give them another two weeks and they will realize the mistakes of the kickstarter too.

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Rezz

Mr. Poopybutthole
4,488
3,531
Still waiting for a game to steal my idea of procedural content generation wholesale and implement it in a SANDBOX! style game. That said..

So, on the topic of group content. There's this misappropriation of the word "group" when it comes to content in general. In EQ, for example, lots of stuff that couldn't be soloed easily was very easily duo'd (fear kiting with a rogue, for example) or trio'd. Would we consider that group content or solo content? Is grouping -anything- but soloing? Anything but solo questing? Anything but solo hand-ins? (assuming that we are considering something you turn in like deathfist slashed belts as solo content) This is where the waters get fairly murky.

Pretty much every game is superior at all aspects of content consumption when you have one other person with you. Suddenly shit dies twice as fast, it doesn't take that much longer to get the one per group drops/spawns/whatever, and you can tackle the occasional "group" mob with a bit of preparation. Should content be aimed at a duo?

Or perhaps trios (this is more of a group size concept than a grouping content concept, but the ideas are intrinsically intertwined) where you plow through all "solo" content like a hot knife through butter, and even group content is doable with some prep time and a strat. It takes a little bit longer for those once per group spawns/drops, but your kill rate is beyond respawn rate in a solo area so you basically just kill stuff while waiting for pops on those. Is this group content and should we aim for that style of gameplay?

The point I'm making, is that it is very difficult to have a hard-line defintion of group content in mmos. As an SK, a necro and I rofflestomped some Group style shit in EQ like it was a joke. I mean borderline constant pulls once we got into our flow, with very little downtime. But it was clearly "group" content that we were tackling, as they were often definable camps in the game. (frenzy/lord/am... you know the drill) For us, it was duo-able content, not group content. A full group would have been overkill in that instance. Same couple of bros (or trannies. Hi rerolled!) did the same shit in Sebilis. Does that mean sebilis was duo-able content or group content?

Final conclusion: instead of taking a hard stance on whether an mmo should include group content solely or include solo content at all, instead argue for the creation of content that has peaks and valleys, where soloers who pay attention can solo shit and groups have things to do, within the same area. Via population density, mob strength, specific mechanics, zone layout... whatever. The idea being that you can have the entire spectrum of players in your game without making it a strictly solo vs. group debate. Which appears to be one of the stupid tenants that Brad up there brought on himself. He made it about the players instead of the game, where you really should focus on promoting the game. Trying to intentionally alienate one group in favor of another just means you end up with less backers, regardless of the quality of your KS or product in general.

Anyway.
 

Muligan

Trakanon Raider
3,253
916
I really debated on doing the $5.00 but why? So people can stand in awe of questions? Be amazed by my articulated answers? It's not like i'm shaping the industry or anything or have any guarantee that any of this will come to fruition. I'm really uneasy about have money taken out of my account every month for nothing. I think this is a creative way to get some money but how far will this go? Will this really be enough to pay anyone's salary? They will have to live off of this for 2-3 years at best.

I'm not trying to be overly negative but I just do not understand how this will survive? The ThinkTank are all questions that have been hashed and re-hashed a million times. Who is to say that a MMO in the next 2-3 years may change our entire way of thinking? Sure, it really hasn't happened yet but the MMO is either going to take a further dive into the dirt or it is going to changed for the better. This mediocrity will not last because eventually it will not be profitable.

Blizzard will release a new MMO, SoE will release a new MMO, not to mention there's a plethora of other guys bringing their ideas to the table in addition to a bunch of console attempts of the MMO genre. With all that being said, again, it is just hard for me to justify giving money to something that is in such an infantile stage that is trying to step into a genre that has not figured out where its going.

I guess the bottom line is that I simply do not have to give. I'm just a little disappointed that he's charging for us to take part in more words. Why don't they just make a Text-based MUD....... words seem to be their deal.
 

BoozeCube

The Wokest
<Prior Amod>
54,539
324,130
I paid the $15 a month sub fee but I am about as far from a fanboy as you can possible get. I'll be quote unquote "spitting da truth" at my misguided gamers and devs alike. I'd wager its a 50/50 chance they will refund my money before too long and say "thanks for the feedback but we got it from here".

As far as grouping, sure a few classes could solo but 95% of all scenario's grouping was faster and safer exp not to mention alot of areas worth while required you being able to handle multiple mobs etc in most of EQ. The requirement for forced grouping is not good for mass market appeal but it sure is fuck is good for forming a community, accountability, and a sense of belonging in a game. There are all sorts of negativies but I still will take the things that I just listed any day of the week. One thing that could be done that I thought FFXIV did semi well (just got back into the game so still learning it) is the party finder. Being able to specific what you are looking for, if you want to plan on doing it in the future, static groups etc. I think that would help the group finding alot. But to be successful they need to A) not have fucking cross server shit outside of maybe pvp clusters (if pvp is in the discussion) and B) have enough worthwhile camps/content that can support multiple active groups at various areas.

I think AA's should be built in from the ground up, inherent 1% exp or something goes to AA's when leveling at a min and you can crank up to 25% or something, then you feel like you have various methods of power gains; combine that with rare dropped loot again from camps etc and you create a reason to actual grind again that is rewarding. I hate to say it but I'm at the point outside of VG style epic quest lines I don't want to see another quest line again. Celestial Ward quest line was just awesome and a bitch prior to nerfs to faction and before people knew all the details. Hell the arena with coin farming and tickets etc was a awesome way to be engaged in the game leveling but also trying to get uber rewards that had staying power (I had the first epic castor item on the server from CW and it was basically BiS until raid gear due to the proc and stats).

We can point out all the issues with the idea of returning to this type of formula but can you honestly look in the mirror and tell yourself you enjoy the shit that is out now? I mean I work 60-70 hours a week with a dynamic schedule running a 24 hour department where I am the linch pin for everything and I'd still make enough time to enjoy and be competitive in a game like EQ again. I'd like to see abit more balance obviously but i'm all for contested content, rare loot etc. Just make sure to design it from the ground up with some mechanics to minimize the negatives (contested spawns, maybe 3 times a week (if we have a large guild game again with 40-56 people) where you get locked out if you kill it for the week. Or a debuff that after 5 wipes you could not engage for an hour or something to allow there to be a race but also not complete lock down etc.

All sorts of ways to mitigate things, just get away from the fucking artifical, completely balanced , and fair approach that makes game so bland. Fuck ilvls, fuck all classes being equal, and fuck everyone thinking they should have a right to see all content the first 2 weeks it was released. This is why AA's were great, early EQ content could be completed with proper strat and orgnaization with less gear and AA's to some extent but as the best completed it and moved foward others slowly increased gear level and AA's and were able to overcome. Make raids tuned for 40 people but allow 50, there now you can have some of the casual guilds bring more people but suffer from item limitation. Also..make gear LARGE INCREASES AND UNIQUE; holy fuck if I play another +1 stat game i swear i'm going to quit gaming. I get the PVP sense you don't want power creep to high or else it kills the new comers but for pve I think a fucker in full raid gear should be able to just literally destory a non raider and be able to grind AA's much more effective or handle old content in small groups. How many of us got hard epeens by going back and doing raid content with a group of 12 or something. And guess what? That gear usually was still good or we could give to an alt etc.

Meh, guys just got me all pissed off at how bad games are now even though they add so many good ideas and user friendliness. Its like having that beautiful natural blond that doesn't even know she is a radiant but then someone puts her in a shit ton of makeup and coaches her on everything to do and say that she becomes so "perfect" that she is fake and souless. Enter Rift and any other MMO as of late.....
You may very well get a refund because if the kickstarter is any indication there will be much circle jerking required.

Grouping for content should always be the goal, I mean that's to me part of what separates it from an RPG, again the vast majority want to bring back some of those missing elements from the current MMO's on the market. One aspect of EQ was that the mobs were very powerful compared to your character, so much so that you were almost required assistance to kill anything, but this did not stop people from soloing, the action in EQ was slow paced but because of that slow pace many people 2 or 3 boxed characters forming their own group, or often you have those who would quad kite, so soloing always has and always will exist to some degree. One thing I think people overlook when talking about grouping in EQ was the fact that it wasn't always a full group. One of the nice things about EQ is to a degree you could bring as many or as few people as you wanted to things, there were so many zones and potential farms available you could always find something that could be a worth wild use of your time, and just being out in the world and traveling made you want to group because it usually meant you would be more efficient use of your time, you don't really need to make soloing nonexistent it just needs to not be very efficient at achieving things. Contrast to WoW in it's current state and 95% of the time it's more efficient to solo.

AA's are a double edge sword, as much as I enjoyed having small extra power increases as I grinded out XP in EQ, I also know it made options like alts, or even switching classes much less appealing options (this can be debated if good or bad) also they can act as a deterrent to newer players, EQ currently is a great example of this as thousands of AA's don't sound appealing to grind just to be viable today. What I had always wished for in an MMO were small power increases from completing content, somewhat like the idea WoW was going to do before they shit out archaeology. Where let's say killing Rag for the first time granted your character a small increase in fire resistance, it would make old content always be relevant at least for the first run through.

The time factor, yes most of us now days have jobs, kids, family, to take care of which means sitting down for 20 hour stretches are not going to happen. However, this to me is always a weird argument, I know we are all kind of selfish as people but there are shitloads of games that cater to that lifestyle. There are literally thousands of games that can be played for small time periods and even newer MMO's follow this pattern, but why make all MMO's the same and force them to change to your schedule. There are just as many new college students with 20 hours a day who need this addiction to fuck up their social lives just like many of you did.

Shitty gear and retarded +1 gooder is awful and one of the worst parts of again games like WoW, one of the biggest mistakes I think they made was making every expansion a soft reset of the game, the mudflation has gotten way out of hand and they are even needing to band-aid fix it at this point. One thing Brad mentioned for Pantheon and I believe is a smart idea is only have 20 or so levels to start with, there is no reason to grind to 50-60 right away in an MMO if successful you know you will be adding expansions and increasing levels over time. Another thing EQ did that current MMO's do not is that every level of game play was relevant, up until Luclin or PoP. The need to hit max level and raid never seemed to be as prevalent as today. Just slowing things down would go along way to being able to make gear more meaningful.

The last part for me, I agree that having PvP fucking up PvE and forcing fun, cool, or in some cases overpowered items from existing is shitty. There are enough PvP based MMO's out there, I would much rather they make a PvE game and have it be fun with an alternate PvP ruleset server that doesn't have to be balanced around. Also I am tired of MMO's feeling the need to have two different opposing factions, always seemed like a bad idea to separate your player base in an MMO.
 

shabushabu

Molten Core Raider
1,410
186
I really debated on doing the $5.00 but why? So people can stand in awe of questions? Be amazed by my articulated answers? It's not like i'm shaping the industry or anything or have any guarantee that any of this will come to fruition. I'm really uneasy about have money taken out of my account every month for nothing. I think this is a creative way to get some money but how far will this go? Will this really be enough to pay anyone's salary? They will have to live off of this for 2-3 years at best.

I'm not trying to be overly negative but I just do not understand how this will survive? The ThinkTank are all questions that have been hashed and re-hashed a million times. Who is to say that a MMO in the next 2-3 years may change our entire way of thinking? Sure, it really hasn't happened yet but the MMO is either going to take a further dive into the dirt or it is going to changed for the better. This mediocrity will not last because eventually it will not be profitable.

Blizzard will release a new MMO, SoE will release a new MMO, not to mention there's a plethora of other guys bringing their ideas to the table in addition to a bunch of console attempts of the MMO genre. With all that being said, again, it is just hard for me to justify giving money to something that is in such an infantile stage that is trying to step into a genre that has not figured out where its going.

I guess the bottom line is that I simply do not have to give. I'm just a little disappointed that he's charging for us to take part in more words. Why don't they just make a Text-based MUD....... words seem to be their deal.
I don't have the answers to your questions and your concerns are valid.. but i think relying on blizzard or SOE for a group based game is just waiting for disappointment if that is where your interest lies ... It sucks, I wish the genre didn't become a solo one but it did or i wouldn't be involved in these shenanigans.
 

BoozeCube

The Wokest
<Prior Amod>
54,539
324,130
Why don't they just make a Text-based MUD....... words seem to be their deal.
The reason they are charging $5.00 and $15.00 a month is because they think they can, and who knows they could be correct. It will be interesting to see how long it lasts though, because there is a breaking point, either enough money has to come in to support these guys or this thing is a bust. I can see maybe the first month or two going well for them, but if the progress is as slow and as bad as it is with the kickstarter then I can't see people making it past month two or three with no tangible benefit.
 

shabushabu

Molten Core Raider
1,410
186
The reason they are charging $5.00 and $15.00 a month is because they think they can, and who knows they could be correct. It will be interesting to see how long it lasts though, because there is a breaking point, either enough money has to come in to support these guys or this thing is a bust. I can see maybe the first month or two going well for them, but if the progress is as slow and as bad as it is with the kickstarter then I can't see people making it past month two or three with no tangible benefit.
Everyone will be watching that is for sure.
 

BoozeCube

The Wokest
<Prior Amod>
54,539
324,130
I don't have the answers to your questions and your concerns are valid.. but i think relying on blizzard or SOE for a group based game is just waiting for disappointment if that is where your interest lies ... It sucks, I wish the genre didn't become a solo one but it did or i wouldn't be involved in these shenanigans.
Looking to a large AAA company to go back to an old school game isn't going to happen, they are after mass appeal big dollar earners, but if the only other option is unprofessional shit then maybe we don't need an old school game.
 

Kirun

Buzzfeed Editor
19,980
16,420
I think the issue is that most people see this as binary situation - it doesnt have to be that way. I can like EQ and want new content in that style (no interest in P99, done that content to death a decade ago), while at the same time liking GW2 or TOR or WoW for other reasons. Or not like some of them without calling everyone that disagrees "stuck in the past", "WoW kiddie" or whatever else.
Absolutely, I agree. However, you're also not of the same ilk as the Merlins and Dumars of this thread, who want aliteralcopy of EQ. It's fine to harken back to mechanics that are part of your "roots", but an exact copy of EQ, with updated graphics? That game will be horrible. Because, for the most part, EQ was horrible. Sure, it has a few things worth mentioning and some older mechanics worth exploring. The thing is, taken as whole, once you wipe away the clouded judgement? It just wasn't a very good game. That's the main thrust of my argument.
 

Dahkoht_sl

shitlord
1,658
0
I still want someone to tell me why I have to support Brad if I like this sort of game. I'm as big of a fan of this type of game as anyone.I bought 5 of my friends copies of EQ back in 99 , signed up their accounts with three months of prepaid time and cancelled the account and then gave them copies. All of them were folks who swore they would never pay a monthly fee , they all played for many years after.

I loved Vanguard , or the idea of it , hated the implementation in technical terms, but still tried to stick with it. I like the idea of corpse runs , tanks being pure tanks that can't solo for shit but are needed more than anyone , and all of the hated mechanics some can't stand. (For the record I also enjoy the WoW style games if done well also , there's nothing wrong with enjoying both).

Was perfectly willing to give Brad money at the beginning of this. More than I though I would honestly , but he's done nothing to show me he's learned anything. If anything , he's reinforced the idea he can't make basic business decisions.

So the idea of you have to support Brad if you like this kind of game is fucking ridiculous. I can use my own eyes and common sense and point out his stupidity on VERY BASIC marketing and business decisions. And this is the place to point that out , it's not beating a dead horse , because HE CONTINUES TO MAKE STUPID DECISIONS. The paid forums are a stupid idea to me , it alienated the true believers and will at some point cause more harm than good. (Just as an example). Abandoning the KS for a week was a bad idea , he could have taken 30 fucking seconds 4 times a day to post a quick post on there, and so on.

Are there people in this thread who hate the idea of an EQ/VG style game ? Yes , but there are more people who would play a decently made game like Pantheon , who can also see Brad seems to be the same old Brad. I'm not talking drugs and such , there's no need in going there, I think he's beyond all that and more power to him for it. But he's not beyond the inability to run something as simple as a Kickstarter , much less a fucking company to make an mmo.

Again , trying to make it a "you're either for Brad or hate EQ" is just as fucking stupid as any trolling from folks who hate this style of game.
 

turbo

Molten Core Raider
1,262
117
Well it was either donate to Brad's addiction with a small chance of it serving as a catalyst for creativity or contribute to Hulk Hogan's 2016 presidential campaign. It was a tough call...Hulk-a-mania runs deep.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,792
664
I don't think it's a Brad or nothing situation. Brad just happens to be the only guy looking to make a game towards a particular niche.
 

Dahkoht_sl

shitlord
1,658
0
I don't think it's a Brad or nothing situation. Brad just happens to be the only guy looking to make a game towards a particular niche.
Now that I get , and that wasn't directed at you anyway , and it's understandable to me to say he's the only game in town atm and you are willing to risk it.

I was more referring to the idiots who can't seem to see how much he's screwed this up so far and admit it, but more so the ones who go full stupid into the "you hate this style of game go away" for pointing out Brad's continuing fuckups.
 

etchazz

Trakanon Raider
2,707
1,056
Absolutely, I agree. However, you're also not of the same ilk as the Merlins and Dumars of this thread, who want aliteralcopy of EQ. It's fine to harken back to mechanics that are part of your "roots", but an exact copy of EQ, with updated graphics? That game will be horrible. Because, for the most part, EQ was horrible. Sure, it has a few things worth mentioning and some older mechanics worth exploring. The thing is, taken as whole, once you wipe away the clouded judgement? It just wasn't a very good game. That's the main thrust of my argument.
that's your opinion. maybe if you stop giving your opinion like it's gospel you wouldn't always come off as such a raging fucking douche bag? if EQ wasn't a very good game, then why did you play it for so long? that's like saying you saw a movie that wasn't very good, but watched it over 300 times. EQ, in my opinion, was the best video game of all time; which is why i played it for over 5 years straight. that's not clouded judgment, that's just how much i enjoyed the game. i'm sorry your time playing everquest was so horrible that you logged over 300 hours before you stopped playing. was someone holding a gun to your head?