Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

tad10 · Jan 25, 2014

arallu_sl said:
I agree, I played a ton in 2008-2009, there was a low but steady population. If anything the quote about running it for a loss for 'years' probably alludes to the last ~4 years.

Remember that for 2009-2011 or so it had a small pop but had zero dev support and was only on one server. That is _not_ expensive. Sorry Gecko old chum but you are not doing the math. Running one server with zero dev support with about 1k subs will generate a minor profit and yes I realize that "one" server was spread out over 4 or 5 physical servers, but you're still just paying for electricity.

The only point where it was for sure losing money was after it went FTP and that initial FTP "pop" faded but they still had 3 or 4 devs on it ($$).

This is why Smed is full of shit with his "losing money" comment. There is just no way he could have lost money once Dev support was pulled in 2009 and there were still 1,000-2,000 people subscribing.

Zefah · Jan 25, 2014

Dumar_sl said:
Which goes back to my original point years ago. All the design talent in the world means jack nothing if you lack engineering expertise. WoW had the best engineering expertise in the business, and THAT is what led to their success - not any notion of design.

Dem coattails, les ride em.

WoW had some great designers, too. Let's not discount their achievements just because a lot of us hate what quest hubs and instancing did to the genre.

But, yeah, it was that butter smooth performance and instantly responsive UI that really made WoW a pleasure to play and I think that did a lot to get people hooked. It just felt good to play.

Dumar_sl · Jan 25, 2014

Zefah_sl said:
WoW had some great designers, too. Let's not discount their achievements just because a lot of us hate what quest hubs and instancing did to the genre.

But, yeah, it was that butter smooth performance and instantly responsive UI that really made WoW a pleasure to play and I think that did a lot to get people hooked. It just felt good to play.

I'm willing to bet you could put almost any game designer on the WoW dev team and it would've been a success due to engineering talent.

BoozeCube · Jan 25, 2014

Dumar_sl said:
Which goes back to my original point years ago. All the design talent in the world means jack nothing if you lack engineering expertise. WoW had the best engineering expertise in the business, and THAT is what led to their success - not any notion of design.

Dem coattails, les ride em.

What's your point? I don't see a team of expert engineers at your hero's disposal so that must me this is going to be trash too.

Zefah · Jan 25, 2014

tad10_sl said:
Remember that for 2009-2011 or so it had a small pop but had zero dev support and was only on one server. That is _not_ expensive. Sorry Gecko old chum but you are not doing the math. Running one server with zero dev support with about 1k subs will generate a minor profit and yes I realize that "one" server was spread out over 4 or 5 physical servers, but you're still just paying for electricity.

The only point where it was for sure losing money was after it went FTP and that initial FTP "pop" faded but they still had 3 or 4 devs on it ($$).

This is why Smed is full of shit with his "losing money" comment. There is just no way he could have lost money once Dev support was pulled in 2009 and there were still 1,000-2,000 people subscribing.

Eh. I'm not going to pretend to know exactly what the costs associated with running Vanguard's servers were. I'm sure it was more than just the electricity bill, although it may not have been enough to make it run at a loss. I also don't pretend to know subscription numbers.

zzeris · Jan 25, 2014

tad10_sl said:
Yeah because Sony needed additional tax writeoffs given that the company lost money 2008 through 2011? But somehow when they're profitable in 2012 and maybe in 2013 they sunset the game that's supposed to be a tax writeoff? Couldn't be that Smed's FTP strategy was an abject failure.

I have to agree with this. The FTP strategy didn't work as they had hoped. They didn't put enough effort in maintaining the game for whatever reasons(I personally think it was a coding nightmare). This was during the sub based portion of the game and later with FTP. I don't think it would have mattered in the end because of all the issues involved at all phases but it probably ecked out an existence for 7 years that was just enough to keep it going. Just like other failed games, it just wasn't enough at a time when other priorities take precedence. The gaming division at Sony is fully invested in taking this genre back. That means massive focus that people like Brad are unable to do. Hence, why he isn't there anymore.

Zefah · Jan 25, 2014

Dumar_sl said:
I'm willing to bet you could put almost any game designer on the WoW dev team and it would've been a success due to engineering talent.

That's a losing bet, because there are some seriously shitty game designers out there.

Also, there's a vast difference between "would have been a success" and "would have been just as successful."

Gecko_sl · Jan 25, 2014

tad10_sl said:
I'm pretty sure I commented on the fact FTP was one of the things that killed the game - they were making more money sub based. And I lot more money in 2009 when there was an actual population.

Of course they were making more money. The game was far newer in 2009 and competition was less fierce so I imagine there were more desperate souls. I was one of them. The game was still dead. Granted my once a week session with my set group might have kept the huge masses of casuals the game attracted hidden, but somehow I doubt it.

So, to summarize:The game wasn't popular in 2009. It was less popular in 2014. It probably would have had even fewer players than the scant handful that played if it had remained sub based, given it's plethora of problems even now.

Repeat after me, grasshopper: Churn. Popularity. Profitability. Learn it. Know it. Live it

Furious · Jan 25, 2014

Edit. Not going to respond to Boozetroll

Kedwyn · Jan 25, 2014

When you take into account what they paid and how that was amortized plus on going costs is entirely probable it wasn't making then any profit. The small amount of positive cash flow that might of come likely wasn't worth the cost or risk of letting it ride.

BoozeCube · Jan 25, 2014

Zefah_sl said:
That's a losing bet, because there are some seriously shitty game designers out there.

Also, there's a vast difference between "would have been a success" and "would have been just as successful."

Also as much as some hate to admit, World of Warcraft for the first few years was a fucking great game, and at the start it has performance issues as well mostly due to the fact they weren't expecting the load of players that they managed to attract, but it wasn't perfect out of the gate by any means. WoW was growing by leaps and bounds until they started doing design by numbers from bean counters.

Lasch · Jan 25, 2014

Is it sad that of all the swag on the tiers, the cloth map is the thing I want the most? I don't understand my brain.

K13R · Jan 25, 2014

Boozecube_sl said:
Yeah people have already pointed out that even with todays level of equipment it still plays like shit. It wasn't just that the specs were to high it's that it was poorly programed.

This it still runs like shit with 6 core I-7, 2x toxic 7970 Ghz edition (the ones with 6 gig of vram) and I put the whole fucking thing on 32 gig RAM disk still runs like ass...

zzeris · Jan 25, 2014

Smed is lying about losing money but it wasn't really making money either. SOE has needed to update their station package and games group for quite a while now. Why not do it at a time 2 new games are on the horizon, another is in hype it early mode, and the main company isn't doing well because they have been unable to understand the electronics market?

BoozeCube · Jan 25, 2014

Lasch_sl said:
Is it sad that of all the swag on the tiers, the cloth map is the thing I want the most? I don't understand my brain.

Nah, people like tangible items, that's why I suggested quite a few times that at least the teirs over $100 should get a physical copy of the game in the very least. Preferably a signed one from the whole team given how early into the project these people would be supporting. It's a pretty cheap value add from them while adding something their supporters would appreciate and hang onto.

Zefah · Jan 25, 2014

Almost an hour old, but Brad posted this on Twitter. Sorry if it's already been discussed here.

Brad McQuaid ?@Aradune 52m
I would be honored to do an interview with @Boogie2988! He and I will figure out the details today. What a fantastic opportunity!

Glad to see this is happening and that Brad is being humble about it.

shabushabu · Jan 25, 2014

Boozecube_sl said:
Yeah people have already pointed out that even with todays level of equipment it still plays like shit. It wasn't just that the specs were to high it's that it was poorly programed.

Bullshit. Once I got an SSD vanguard ran exceptionally well and even before that there were modifications you could do to get it there.... for everyone ? No, but the game does not play like shit on current hardware or even 2009 hardware and to this day it runs better than eq2 does.

arallu · Jan 25, 2014

Lasch_sl said:
Is it sad that of all the swag on the tiers, the cloth map is the thing I want the most? I don't understand my brain.

I agree, at this point more physical stuff, from t-shirts with Pantheon or class emblems on it, to more expensive signed stuff, could help in just raw pledge dollars. Granted it'll eat into the bottom line, but if it helps hit the goal I say go for it.

tad10 · Jan 25, 2014

Gecko_sl said:
It doesn't take any stretch of mathematical logic to see it was impossible for Vanguard to be profitable the last few years.

Since we've gotten sidetracked back to your original post that's not what Smed said. AFAICT, Smed said VG was never profitable when it was his FTP that wasn't profitable (I think it might have been a "net loss" quote - same point applies).

Whatever, I won't choad up this thread with this discussion anymore - feel free to take the parting shot.

arallu · Jan 25, 2014

Combat update

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