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chaos · May 10, 2017

Cad said:
My only point is ultimately your authority over another person derives from X. What is X for a parent/child?

Your authority derives from economic control, property ownership, and cis-white heteronormative societal patriarchy.

Which are all words. But it's kind of true. The family bonds/structure created thousands of years ago that we maintain today are the foundation of parental authority. Economic control and property ownership can be used as tools to incentivize behavior that is desired. Using violence to reinforce behavior is just poor min/maxing of your skill points, and ineffective at that.

The goal here is not "make this motherfucker do what I say when I say", it is to raise effective adults. Is it not? This is the long game here.

Cad · May 10, 2017

chaos said:
Your authority derives from economic control, property ownership, and cis-white heteronormative societal patriarchy.

Do you have economic control if your kid ignores your instructions in your home and just takes whatever he wants? "Don't take the car tonight!" * Takes car anyway... you do what?

Do you have property ownership if you refuse to stop him from taking from you whatever he wants?

cis-white... so, are you saying gay trans black people can't raise children?

chaos said:
The goal here is not "make this motherfucker do what I say when I say", it is to raise effective adults. Is it not? This is the long game here.

Anybody who has ever managed people will tell you sometimes you use the carrot and sometimes you use the stick.

If you're the boss and you're told you CANNOT fire someone. Period. Can't fire them. Ever. How do you manage them? What authority do you have over them? See: government employees not giving a fuck about anything

Noodleface · May 10, 2017

I don't even know how we got here nor how we get out

chaos · May 10, 2017

Cad said:
Do you have economic control if your kid ignores your instructions in your home and just takes whatever he wants? "Don't take the car tonight!" * Takes car anyway... you do what?

Do you have property ownership if you refuse to stop him from taking from you whatever he wants?

cis-white... so, are you saying gay trans black people can't raise children?

Anybody who has ever managed people will tell you sometimes you use the carrot and sometimes you use the stick.

If you're the boss and you're told you CANNOT fire someone. Period. Can't fire them. Ever. How do you manage them? What authority do you have over them? See: government employees not giving a fuck about anything

You control the car, you control your kids movements. If it gets extreme enough that your kid is stealing your car, we're talking about felony territory, I don't even pretend to know how you deal with that. But again, is violence the magic bullet that is going to solve that problem?

ZyyzYzzy · May 10, 2017

chaos said:
You control the car, you control your kids movements. If it gets extreme enough that your kid is stealing your car, we're talking about felony territory, I don't even pretend to know how you deal with that. But again, is violence the magic bullet that is going to solve that problem?

Are you suggesting you shoot the child in that situation or just threaten them with a gun?

Noodleface · May 10, 2017

ZyyzYzzy said:
Are you suggesting you shoot the child in that situation or just threaten them with a gun?

Spank his bumbum

chaos · May 10, 2017

Start with a pistol whip at least, we're talking about your child here!

Big_w_powah · May 10, 2017

chaos said:
Selection bias, you say "spanking staved off the terrible 2s" but you have no way or knowing that.

Spanking is child abuse. I get that is an uncomfortable thing to hear, but it is. You don't want to see the science, per your post, but it's out there and it isn't controversial. It would be unbelievably cruel to spank my child for having an outburst they can't control due to some disorder. It isn't an option. It's tempting, all the fucking time, for sure. I get frustrated and angry. That's just weakness in me, that does not mean it is the correct thing to do.

Also, I'm not passing judgement on you. Lots of people spank there kids. My dad spanked me. My grandmother spanked her kids. But it is what it is.

According to DFPS of Texas, spanking is not child abuse. It is corporal punishment within the rights of the legal parents to perform.

That said, I do not agree that spanking is useful for anything other than your average, run of the mill no issue child.

I adopted my son from CPS, I was a foster parent and I am adopting another son through CPS. I will NEVER lay hands on my children rather or not it is legal.

My children, and I believe this relates to autistic spectrum children too, all suffer from seeing the world in different ways. @Xadion should be goddamn ashamed of himself right now. Not for spanking his kid's but because he said autistic children just "act out more extreme"...The perceive the entire world in a way you cannot fucking comprehend you jackass.

The same with children that have been through the system; They grew up in a world of abuse and neglect, their minds are molded very fucking different than ours. You can fucking see it on a cat scan.

I'm triggered, so I am going to stop here with one last comment:

Don't talk out of your fucking ass, @Xadion. IDGAF if you spank your kids, but don't assume normal children are just less severe versions of the "extreme" kids you see. Its not the case, dumbass.

Cad · May 10, 2017

chaos said:
You control the car, you control your kids movements. If it gets extreme enough that your kid is stealing your car, we're talking about felony territory, I don't even pretend to know how you deal with that. But again, is violence the magic bullet that is going to solve that problem?

Once it gets to that level, probably not. But you know how kids are - they always test the limits. They don't just hear the rule and go, ok thats the rule great I will abide by that.

You make a rule and they find out what happens when they break it. You make a punishment and they will push the limits of the punishment (you put them in time out, for example as a toddler and they just walk out of the corner - if you let that happen, then your timeout punishment is now ineffective, etc).

At SOME POINT, and obviously not first, but at SOME POINT, your child will need to actually fear the consequences of pushing you. This also depends on the kids because some kids will never push you and others will go to the mattresses over anything.

I just don't like absolutes and think any blanket statement that says "any physical discipline of any kind is abuse" is bullshit.

chaos · May 10, 2017

Cad said:
Once it gets to that level, probably not. But you know how kids are - they always test the limits. They don't just hear the rule and go, ok thats the rule great I will abide by that.

You make a rule and they find out what happens when they break it. You make a punishment and they will push the limits of the punishment (you put them in time out, for example as a toddler and they just walk out of the corner - if you let that happen, then your timeout punishment is now ineffective, etc).

At SOME POINT, and obviously not first, but at SOME POINT, your child will need to actually fear the consequences of pushing you. This also depends on the kids because some kids will never push you and others will go to the mattresses over anything.

I just don't like absolutes and think any blanket statement that says "any physical discipline of any kind is abuse" is bullshit.

It's using violence to impose your will, if you did the same thing to literally any other human other than your child you'd go to jail. I'm sure in some places you can't even hit your dog. It's abuse that large parts of society have decided to tolerate largely because of anecdotal data.

Cad · May 10, 2017

chaos said:
It's using violence to impose your will

This is literally the basis for all human rights on the planet, it's shocking that you would cavalierly type this out as if, OBVIOUSLY you don't use violence. I get it you're against hitting kids and I am too, and I could count on one hand the number of times I've spanked my kids.

chaos · May 10, 2017

Yeah, to me it does seem obvious. Beyond the data that clearly shows deleterious effects of spanking and other forms of physical punishment, it just seems cruel to me. If I told you I hit my dog you'd think I was a piece of shit. If I told you I hit my wife you'd think I was a piece of shit. But if I tell you I hit a 4 year old then I'm "disciplining".

It's whatever, I don't even feel that strongly about it. People can, and will, do whatever they want. I just don't see why we have to play little semantics games so people can feel good about it.

Cad · May 10, 2017

chaos said:
Yeah, to me it does seem obvious. Beyond the data that clearly shows deleterious effects of spanking and other forms of physical punishment, it just seems cruel to me. If I told you I hit my dog you'd think I was a piece of shit. If I told you I hit my wife you'd think I was a piece of shit. But if I tell you I hit a 4 year old then I'm "disciplining".

Dogs will never know better. They're animals.

Wives are adults that can be reasoned with like adults, and aren't your responsibility to teach. They're your equal.

Kids are your responsibility to mold, teach respect and how to get along in the world.

If you don't see the difference in those things, I don't know what to tell you.

Noodleface · May 10, 2017

Guys can we all calm down a little. Take it from autism level to normal kid level. Before xadion beats us within an inch of our lives

Big_w_powah · May 10, 2017

Cad said:
Dogs will never know better. They're animals.

Wives are adults that can be reasoned with like adults, and aren't your responsibility to teach. They're your equal.

Kids are your responsibility to mold, teach respect and how to get along in the world.

If you don't see the difference in those things, I don't know what to tell you.

You hit the nail on the head with the bolded; You just have to realize there's no one size fits all solution for that

Big_w_powah · May 10, 2017

Cad said:
I assume so too, but what makes adhd something that you "literally cannot control" versus just something that they have more trouble controlling than other people?

Thats not even the issue here, and

chaos doesn't even get that; Its their perception of the world. Spanking an autistic child can be the same thing to them that beating a normal kid with a baseball bat might be. Remember; Autism comes with sensory issues.

chaos · May 10, 2017

Big_w_powah said:
Thats not even the issue here, and chaos doesn't even get that; Its their perception of the world. Spanking an autistic child can be the same thing to them that beating a normal kid with a baseball bat might be. Remember; Autism comes with sensory issues.

I know quite well what issues come along with autism.

Cad · May 10, 2017

Big_w_powah said:
Thats not even the issue here, and chaos doesn't even get that; Its their perception of the world. Spanking an autistic child can be the same thing to them that beating a normal kid with a baseball bat might be. Remember; Autism comes with sensory issues.

I'm just wondering where you draw the line on "totally can't control it" to "harder for them, but they can work on it" type stuff? Are Muslim sexual emergencies out of their control? Are black people's habitual random violence out of their control? Is Gordon Gecko's greed out of his control or is he just an asshole?

I'm not mocking autism here I'm just wondering where you draw that line.

Cad · May 10, 2017

Big_w_powah said:
You hit the nail on the head with the bolded; You just have to realize there's no one size fits all solution for that

Of course, which has been my point all along. I have 3 kids and the way I handle each is different because they are different. There's gonna be kids where just raising your voice at them they wilt because they love you so much that your anger just slays them. Other kids give exactly zero shits, and you have to play the gruff dad role.

This "any discipline is abuse" shit is just nonsense.

chaos · May 10, 2017

Cad said:
Of course, which has been my point all along. I have 3 kids and the way I handle each is different because they are different. There's gonna be kids where just raising your voice at them they wilt because they love you so much that your anger just slays them. Other kids give exactly zero shits, and you have to play the gruff dad role.

This "any discipline is abuse" shit is just nonsense.

I never said "any discipline is abuse". I said using violence against a child is abuse. I said that it has well documented negative effects, and it does. I said that it was cruel to use against children with disorders impacting their ability to control their behavior, and it is, to me anyway. Which was the original argument.

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