Patrick Rothfuss Kingkiller Chronicles

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Lusiphur

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One of the thing I'm looking forward learning in book 3 is if the "angel" Kvothe mentions killing in book 1 is Denna or if he actually ends up in a confrontation with one of the 9 angels described by Skarpi.

It is a little bizarre that after THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of years of hunting down the Chandrian, the 9 chosen by Aleph have been unable to dispatch even ONE of them. Maybe there's a reason for that beyond getting late to the Chandrian's little blue parties.
The reason is Rothfuss's need to overdramatise at times. To be fair, most of the fantasy genre does this. Authors need to get the message that there is no cast-iron rule that your antagonist has to date from the pre-Cambrian epoch while your protagonist is barely out of diapers.
 

Enzee

Trakanon Raider
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Haven't read these books, or really heard of the author until recently.. When he was named as the 4th member of Penny Arcade's D&D party for PAX this year, the spot normally taken by Wil Wheaton who can't make it this time.

If you haven't watched some of the previous videos/podcasts, they are hilarious (search PAX celebrity D&D), and the flash animation that introduced Patrick Rothfuss was pretty good too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InnhxiRCJBA
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
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I totally forgot about these books. I thought the new one came out when I saw this thread. I thought books were kind of interesting/retarded.
 
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zzeris

King Turd of Shit Hill
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Really liked reading the books but Kvothe does seem very Mary Sue-ish(or Gary Stu). The guy can magically somehow subvert a powerful elder fae who then decides she must teach him to be amazing at sex. Just the most off-putting example. Great skill at weaving an interesting story but Rothfuss seems to constantly be battling between making Kvothe invincible and finding ways to make him seem less Sue-like.
 
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Randin

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Oh, Kvothe is completely Mary-Sue, there's no argument there. But I feel like that's sorta supposed to be the point, with the whole idea that he's a living legend who dropped off the map to tend bar, and the reader getting to learn why.

You'd never recommend that an author build their character as a Mary Sue, but I honestly think it works in this case.
 

Himeo

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Really liked reading the books but Kvothe does seem very Mary Sue-ish(or Gary Stu). The guy can magically somehow subvert a powerful elder fae who then decides she must teach him to be amazing at sex. Just the most off-putting example. Great skill at weaving an interesting story but Rothfuss seems to constantly be battling between making Kvothe invincible and finding ways to make him seem less Sue-like.
Yeah, that was bad.

1247464133_Q5635-L.jpg


That's the character though. Remember, he is telling his own story. In the frame we've seen him kick monster ass, stitch a wound, fail to use magic, get beat up by a mercenary, and perform a perfect martial arts move. I'm more interested in if he's a reliable narrator or not. What's the phrase? He "Doth protest too much".
 
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zzeris

King Turd of Shit Hill
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Lol, yeah it's still a good story but he's a prick and it sometimes interferes with my enjoyment of the story. "Hey guys I'm not perfect! Math bores me and some people don't like me either. I had a rough couple of years too!" It's like writing a good He-man story and he complains about having to change into Prince Adam all the time. " I'm the rich prince of a powerful kingdom who also is the most powerful hero on the planet but I have to act like a coward too." Or "My dick is 14 inches long and I last all night but sometimes it hurts my partner after we are done..."
 

Grimmlokk

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This is the second time in the last two weeks I've seen people implying he's had no troubles. They just shrug off the whole everything and every one he loved and knew from birth being horribly slaughtered. Oh and him as a child being lost in the woods. And living as a street urchin and nearly dying, a bunch of times, while being on the verge of starving the entire time. While other street urchins are constantly out to get him. And losing the one link he has to his old life.

If the scene at the campfire with the caravan where Kvothe gets to play the other guy's lute didn't get you in the feels you are a robot. Almost purely because he spent most of the book to that point having life shit all over him in every way conceivable, and that was the first emotional win for him.

"Rough couple of years". He didn't lose his job and live on Ramen or move back in with mom and dad=P It was three+ years of being near death every single day. As a child. Alone.

All the other criticism is totally valid, especially the silly wish fulfillment shit. Just weird that I've seen people in totally different places dismissing what he went through as a kid.
 

Ashin

Silver Knight of the Realm
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It's just so overdone. I mean the guy is: Super smart, super good at music, a sex god, super good looking (every girl he comes across, their panties seem to drop at the sight of him), a supreme fighter.

I want some ACTUAL flaws in a character, not fucking superman. Sure he's a moron when around Denna but that's it really from memory. That and it was just fucking annoying everytime I read "Ah but I'm a member of the Ruhr(sp?) people and we're so skilled that we can just do xyz".
 
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Grimmlokk

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Well his temper is supposed to be his big flaw, but we're two(long) books in and it hasn't really fucked him too hard so far. I mean, he'll get in some trouble but then just awesome his way out of it. It's going to get him to where he is now, after killing whatever King(Ambrose?) and retreating from his old life. But...I mean, it's like 1700 pages in now or whatever. That's a lot of build up for his main flaw(besides Denna induced retardation) to actually hurt him in any lasting way.
 

Man0warr

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Maybe he's not really awesome and it's just himself exaggerating to the guy writing his biography.
 
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Lusiphur

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Maybe he's not really awesome and it's just himself exaggerating to the guy writing his biography.
It is a bit late in the day to pull unreliable narrator with absolutely no foreshadowing of it. In fact doesn't he explicitly tell the storyteller he will give him a true accounting?
 

Running Dog_sl

shitlord
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It's just so overdone. I mean the guy is: Super smart, super good at music, a sex god, super good looking (every girl he comes across, their panties seem to drop at the sight of him), a supreme fighter.

I want some ACTUAL flaws in a character, not fucking superman. Sure he's a moron when around Denna but that's it really from memory. That and it was just fucking annoying everytime I read "Ah but I'm a member of the Ruhr(sp?) people and we're so skilled that we can just do xyz".
If you assume that the second book really was patched together from previously-written shorter stories it makes a bit more sense. He writes one story about Kvothe the sex god then shelves it; later he writes another story about Kvothe the martial arts master, and shelves that. When he comes to write the whole thing, he links the stories together, so you end up with Kvothe mastering everything - and a very oddly paced book where he can spend what feels like a lifetime wandering through a forest telling stories, but a page talking with the most dangerous creature in existence.

In short, what Rothfuss needs is a good editor.
 
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Nebuchadnezzar

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He has one of the most experienced editors in genre publishing, Betsy Wollheim. Her parents founded DAW, which she now owns, and she's been doing this for over 30 years. She also won a Hugo for editing the book you're talking about.

Here's Rothfuss about how she saved his career and us from a truly shitty book 2:

I don?t tell Betsy about any of this, of course. Because I?m a newbie and I?m scared to death that I?m going to ruin my big chance with my for-real publisher. So I keep telling her everything is fine, and she keeps asking to see the draft of book two.

But I put her off again and again. Another month. Another two weeks. Four more days?.

Eventually she says she *needs* it. Seriously. Now.

So I send it to her. It?s a mess. The beginning 100 pages are just a tangle.

Just to make it clear how different it was from the finished version:

1. The manuscript I gave Betsy was 150,000 words shorter than the eventual print version of the book.

2. Vashet didn?t exist. At all. Bredon didn?t exist. At all.

3. There was no Adem hand talk. No tak. No ring rituals in Severen.

4. There are whole chapters that were nothing more than this:

Chapter 31: [need title]

(Something happens with Ambrose here.)

That?s how bad parts of it were.

So anyway, I send it off to Betsy, nervous as hell. She calls me a couple days later, real concern in her voice, and says, ?Pat, this is really rough?.?

I say, ?Yeah. I know. But I can do it. I can put in the hours.?

Betsy says, ?It?s going to be a *lot* of work. There are some real problems in here. Some parts are really skimpy.?

I say, ?Yeah. I?m making good progress though. I?ve got my new workspace set up and everything.?

She says, ?Book two has to be really solid, you know. People have high expectations. It?s really going to determine the course of your career.?

I say, ?I promised book two would be out in a year. I just need to knuckle down and write hard for the next five months. No breaks. I can do it.?

She says, ?That?s not really how your process works though. You?re a reviser. You like to get feedback from your readers and tinker with things. There won?t be any time for that if you?re still drafting the book now?.?

I say, ?I promised though. And I?ve scheduled it out. I?ve been writing 14 hours a day, and so long as I can keep that up?.?

She says, ?I really don?t think you can make this book as good as it needs to be.?

I say, ?I can. I know I can do it.?

She says, ?I?m pulling the book out of the production schedule.?

I?m stunned into silence, just standing there in my kitchen. I suddenly feel? good. Like someone had been standing on my chest and they just got off. ?You can do that?? I asked her.

?Yeah,? she says, ?I?m pulling it. You can?t disappoint people with the second book.?

I say, ?Oh thank god.?
 

zzeris

King Turd of Shit Hill
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Get over the white knighting Grimmlokk. Rothfuss is trying to find every single life experience this guy could have to be his Gary Stu. Charisma with crowds, lets add in an entertainer's history. Magical savant, traveling mage teacher. Sex demon, ancient goddess of sex he suborns at 16. Attack his bookie, they patch it all up a couple chapters later. Make enemies of a ducal heir and some powerful mage teachers...fuck it he's a savant with charisma right? Needs skill with a weapon, give him training with a blademaster of the Adem. Are you fucking serious here?

What are Kvothe's flaws again Grimm? A so far nonexistent rage? Failing at shit he doesn't give a damn about? Really? His parents die because they repeat what the Seven don't want heard. But he lives, why? Why is everyone bending over backwards to help a trouper's tramp again? What skills did he have to survive the streets again?

I like the story but it's really just a better written Salvatore Drizzt novel. At least Kvothe isn't the old pacifist forced to fight eh? He's just the master of all trades who can't fuck the ass he wants to fuck. I guess we still need to remember that a flawless character still lost his parents though and lived on the streets for a little while. Oh and he hates math too.
 
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Grimmlokk

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So you literally ignored every single thing I said and then repeated most of what I said? I'll give you the tl;dr part again.

"All the other criticism is totally valid, especially the silly wish fulfillment shit. Just weird that I've seen people in totally different places dismissing what he went through as a kid."

The closest thing I see you making to a counterpoint is that apparently he should have died with his family? Because killing the main character 50 pages in is usually a good way to start a trilogy?
 

zzeris

King Turd of Shit Hill
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No one is truly dismissing what he went through as a kid though. Honestly, isn't that the overall arc of the story? He wants to make his family's killers pay? The part of him being a street urchin is just a logical choice of furthering the story. Kvothe is a gigantic Gary Stu but losing your parents is a common theme in many genres and the street urchin part of the story is a very small part of the over 2000 pages he's already published(paperback).

You think its weird we are 'glossing' over parts of the story he didn't put much time on for the overall theme of 'this guy is close to perfect'. On the other hand, I think it's weird that you haven't moved on from his early childhood and still focus on the early parts of book one.