Problem with every mmorpg

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Usha Starchild_sl

shitlord
184
0
Kreugen_sl said:
It's funny that so few of these posts have anything to do with actually playing the game.

Often, it's just not a good game. But even with a good game, the problem is the absurd expectation that 5000 hours and years later you'll still experience the same level of enjoyment. After that amount of time the game has to morph into something that can both interest people who have played the same shit for a decade as well as be accessible enough for new or returning people. A nearly impossible task that always falls short on both ends.

My guess pulled straight from ass is that the fix for this is not a fix but rather SEQUELS or NEW GAMES instead of EXPANSIONS. It's been a decade, stop trying to milk that rotting carcass.

Do you want a game, or a virtual world? Hell, the moment something respawns out of thin air, it's no more a virtual world than a Call of Duty match. You're not going to get the Matrix, stop asking for it.

The other problem with MMORPG's are the goddamn people. If the game is easy enough that you can tolerate playing with any idiot, then you're probably going to see and do everything and swiftly move on to something else. However, if the game is challenging enough that you have to be selective with who you play with, you'll soon frequently find yourself in your backyard at 3am digging graves for the random strangers you chopped to pieces with a machete in a blind rage.
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Some of the most fun I had was trying to out survive you on the EQ "one death only server", Necros were OP at that time. Imagine playing wow with one life!

Project M was cool as well, some developer needs to work out a way where not too much harassment goes on and do something like that again.
 
V

VariaVespasa_sl

shitlord
572
5
Lyrical_sl said:
That was my problem with EQ1. It was really fun up until level 30. Then the difficulty got so bad you had forced grouping, unless you were less than a handful of classes.
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Its grouping that created this community and why people still remember the people in it fondly after all this time...
 
Variise

Variise

N00b
497
17
Having played EQ from early on I have to agree. I personally made lifelong friends there. That's not really possible in today's super casual games where most interactions last a few minutes.

There is literally nothing on the horizon that can cater to what people are talking about here short of Star Citizen with all of its core features combined. Me bringing that up means basically nothing and I realize that. Less than nothing actually since some still think I'm a shill. But isn't it part of the problem that nobody tries to reach for greatness anymore even if they fail? They seem to grasp for mediocrity while loudly pushing PR claiming otherwise. It's so fucking boring.

That's how the The Division happened. The game we got looks nothing like the game that was in E3. It's so different that it's almost another game entirely that was a poor rip off from a Chinese firm. Online interactions were hosed to cater to the console, along with the UI, graphics and core gameplay.

Without game companies pushing the edges of what is possible other companies will never attempt to improve on a feature and give us better gaming experiences. I crave for a multiplayer game that does the things you guys are talking about and there simply isn't one in any genre. The ones that do exist that seem fun fall apart in the end game. Games like EVE are won and lost before anyone ever stepped into a cockpit. Which I suppose is interesting from a strategic, analytical and white paper point of view but for me it sucks the life out of the game. It's a bit too much like real life with weeks/months in the front lines spent with lingering anxiety mixed with boredom broken by brief minutes of panicked combat that are about as much fun as a paper cut.
 
mkopec

mkopec

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I think its us that ruined the games for ourselves. When EQ first came out for most of us it was all new, fresh, people trying to figure shit out like mechanics, the best classes for groups, the trinity and all that. Its like a whole new world to explore. But as time went on, shit just got to be systematic. Yeah new ideas were introduced with newer games, but weve all been there done that and its just not the same fresh feeling anymore. That first kiss syndrome thing in play. Because at their core they are just not really good games. What made them good is the experiences you shared with others, or even by yourself.
 
Srathor

Srathor

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I still want what Rift had in beta. I want it modernized and updated now, but want the overworld to be invaded. I want the competing factions changing shit. I want instanced dungeons that you can que up as a contested run, with another like powered group comes in and tries to stomp you. I want guild wars where they can war with npc factions and use that to change the world as well.

But you can't always get what you want.
 
fanaskin

fanaskin

Well known agitator
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They shouldn't add new lands every expansion, eventually 90% of your game turns into a deserted wasteland nobody goes to. Update the old lands or something. Also fuck instancing use a system where you can make things spawn if you want to fight them somehow.
 
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rmack_sl

shitlord
44
0
Seems like no one focuses on building a world anymore, it's all about finding the new holy grail of game mechanics. Almost every new mmo overworld seems like it was built for a ARPG with how streamlined everything is, just a static treadmill until max level. At least when mmo overworlds were the main attraction of the game, grinding didn't get so borning (since the world was interesting and organically handcrafted). Also since we had such unique overworlds that would reward you for exploring every inch of it, it wasn't so bad not racing for max level. The old model of MMO's were to build a interesting overworld first then everything else comes after. Now you just focus your whole dev team to theory crafting the new hot game mechanic that will change the world of MMOs forever (then just copy and paste stock art around the world because it's all about end game anyway,right...?). Themepark MMO world design hasn't changed much since TBC wow, the only thing new is public quests from warhammer. MMORPG's are all about end game now and probably damn near impossible to think gamers will revert back to the idea that MMOs are all about the journey.
 
Variise

Variise

N00b
497
17
Well that's why I and I think others here argue that games with set level limits inevitably lead to a system that eats itself.

With all of EVE's faults it does it's own thing in the end game that nobody can really replicate but it's still a horrible system that just delays the inevitable to such a degree that most quit before they ever reach it.

One of the most fun MMOs I played was SWG just in terms of character development. Once you spent some time playing you could build whatever you wanted to in terms of character templates. They had to kill it of course. It's not something you balance. Anyone ever play the original Star Wars P&P RPG? Were classes balanced? Fuck no. They shared many skills but then you could specialize and craft something unique. Their issue was not having features that would take advantage of the various paths people could take with the various character templates and required way too much direct interaction where people didn't realize they had to do. I played a Dancer for a while and almost nobody "looked" at me during downtime in larger groups/raids no matter how much I pleaded and begged them to help heal themselves. People are sometimes dumb and game mechanics that aren't obvious need to account for that.
 
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Running Dog_sl

shitlord
1,199
3
If I was going to develop an MMO these days I'd make / remake the old Paranoia RPG (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parano...e-playing_game) ). The whole set-up of the game has grouping as a requirement, but with the added bonus of killing off some of your own teammates as a personal, secret mission goal. It would be tailor-made for the LFG / LFR environment and those who go AFK or don't pull their weight.
 
Kreugen

Kreugen

Vyemm Raider
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793
Problem with every mmorpg: It's all sunshine and rainbows until the wiping starts.

"I truly don't know what's gonna happen when the lights go out, Carolyn, but I do know, once the dying starts, this little psycho fuck family of ours is gonna rip itself apart." - Riddick

(this can also be part of the fun - to a point)
 
L

Laerazi_sl

shitlord
293
2
Newer games are far too controlled of an experience these days.

Every quest hub, every NPC, every spell, ability, etc. are balanced and doled out in the perfect amounts for players to consume at the developer's rate. In EverQuest, you could charm guards, you could drop all of your gold on the ground, you could fall to your death at level 1, you could loot someone elses corpse, you could train horrible groups of monsters on other players, you could even steal loot from other player kills. Today there are so many barriers and arrows pointing you to what you're SUPPOSED to do. There are no opportunities for discovery or ingenuity, unexpected moments, or revelations.

From about level 5 on you know exactly what your class does and you do that same thing up until end game and beyond. I remember in EverQuest, my bard had a ridiculous amount of utility in upwards of 80 songs in my song book. One of my favorite memories in EverQuest was soloing with my 60 bard in Chardok, seeing if I could get down to the gnome mask named and camp him. It was the hardest thing I've ever done, but I managed through a use of charming, mezz, healing, etc. I never even got the mask after camping him for days, but being able to pull that off was incredibly rewarding. I have similar adventures in Old Sebilis and Siren's Grotto where I actually got the Mask of Obtenebration and Lute of the Howler.

For some people, these controlled environments are what they actually want and kudos for them since there is a ton of this type of thing out there now.. but I think a lot of people want a more free-form world where you log into the game and are set into a world again; no hand-holding, no arrow pointing you to your next destination, just.. do whatever you want. See that fire on the horizon? I want to go there and see what it is. You don't have to be at quest hub 6 at level 23-25 to go there. Sure there might be challenging things there, but maybe you can defeat it with what you have.

I remember hearing about the Zul'Gurub plague in WoW or Kazzak trained to Stormwind.. the most memorable things I remember hearing about WoW were accidental and removed immediately after, because you don't want to hinder the controlled structure they have in place. What if a game not only let you do that, but instead allowed for ways to counter this type of thing. Let players defend the cities somehow, even if they are low level.

Until developers let up on the reigns, we will continue to see boring "worlds" with nothing to do but the same, tired formula. Interestingly, I think it was the original EQ's team inexperience that led to such an open-ended feeling experience. They didn't anticipate what the players would do and so they made something great by accident. This is why I'm hopeful some indie experience will be the one to make a return to this format.
 
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Miele

Miele

Lord Nagafen Raider
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Laerazi_sl said:
I remember hearing about the Zul'Gurub plague in WoW or Kazzak trained to Stormwind.. the most memorable things I remember hearing about WoW were accidental and removed immediately after, because you don't want to hinder the controlled structure they have in place. What if a game not only let you do that, but instead allowed for ways to counter this type of thing. Let players defend the cities somehow, even if they are low level.
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Not that I entirely disagree with what you wrote, but let's put things in perspective here: memorable deeds in EQ were never good for those players on the receiving end of the asshattery, be it training, killstealing, etc.
Same is true for those who levelled, say a rogue or a warrior in a longass time and found out they couldn't do almost anything alone compared to enchanters/bards/necros/wizards/druids, who had the possibility to do crazy shit like the one you mentioned.
It's also slightly misleading saying that "the most memorable things I rememberhearingabout WoW were accidental", because I can assure you that I have a fuckton of memories collected during these last 11 years I spent playing the game and none of them is about "unintended gameplay situations".

Is it true that modern WoW (or anyother copycat game) is way too linear and insultaed, more akin to a lobby game than a living breathing world? Oh, it definitely is. If you play on a private vanilla realm, you can see a gigantic difference, most things have been removed in the name of accessibility and fast gaming sessions with autoforming groups that teleport you into the bite-sized instance of your choice. It changed over the years and I fear it's not going to change back, ever.
 
D

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
I doubt you're going to find another hotbar dikumuds quest game with any kind of budget above indie level ever again.
 
G

gugabuba

Golden Knight of the Realm
129
38
Draegan_sl said:
I doubt you're going to find another hotbar dikumuds quest game with any kind of budget above indie level ever again.
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This seems true but unfortunate for those of us who love that style. It is a little bit like if they stopped making Civilization when Warcraft came out. Why wouldn't both exist (and the market for them)? Then again, I've never really understood why the production of (or maybe market for) certain types of games (like adventure games and space sims) seems to evaporate.

Laerazi_sl said:
Until developers let up on the reigns, we will continue to see boring "worlds" with nothing to do but the same, tired formula. Interestingly, I think it was the original EQ's team inexperience that led to such an open-ended feeling experience. They didn't anticipate what the players would do and so they made something great by accident. This is why I'm hopeful some indie experience will be the one to make a return to this format.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I think this is the dream. Some indie developer that just isn't good enough at the engineering to create a formulaic experience may create something that is actually fun to explore. Plus, the indie-sized player base might keep things a mystery for longer relative to the easily available information out there for most games now.
 
D

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
Civ has evolved over time and has remained successful. Wow is still going strong. I think when finally kicks you might see something.

It won't be quest hub gameplay though. I almost would willing to bet you won't see hotbar tab target. If you don't see the evolution. Of bdo style controls, you'll find more xcom/moba kind of systems I bet.
 
L

Laerazi_sl

shitlord
293
2
Miele_sl said:
Not that I entirely disagree with what you wrote, but let's put things in perspective here: memorable deeds in EQ were never good for those players on the receiving end of the asshattery, be it training, killstealing, etc.
Same is true for those who levelled, say a rogue or a warrior in a longass time and found out they couldn't do almost anything alone compared to enchanters/bards/necros/wizards/druids, who had the possibility to do crazy shit like the one you mentioned.
It's also slightly misleading saying that "the most memorable things I rememberhearingabout WoW were accidental", because I can assure you that I have a fuckton of memories collected during these last 11 years I spent playing the game and none of them is about "unintended gameplay situations".

Is it true that modern WoW (or anyother copycat game) is way too linear and insultaed, more akin to a lobby game than a living breathing world? Oh, it definitely is. If you play on a private vanilla realm, you can see a gigantic difference, most things have been removed in the name of accessibility and fast gaming sessions with autoforming groups that teleport you into the bite-sized instance of your choice. It changed over the years and I fear it's not going to change back, ever.
Click to expand...
True that being trained on sucks, but it happened to me many times in EverQuest and it never caused me to quit the game; also people that trained to grief meant they would develop a bad reputation with players. I'm not saying these things are perfect in their existence, but just as examples of what WAS possible. The solution of baby-proofing every aspect of the game leads to a very safe but mediocre experience, in my opinion.

And I'm not saying EQ was perfect either. Rogue and warrior are actually examples of classes that I disliked and wouldn't want to see in their old form again. New MMOs at least give these style of classes more functionality. I'd like to see classes having lots of useful abilities to pick from that aren't just "Do damage a different way" or have none at all. Crowd control, in general, adds so much to gameplay, but is very rarely required anymore. When it's faster to just mow down a group of enemies, the game becomes a boring whack-a-mole where you type your damage rotation over and over.
 
R

rmack_sl

shitlord
44
0
Thing is the dikumud style fits in line with the D&D gameplay that every RPG has based itself on (RNG math based gameplay with items that add or remove a percentage to something). At this point every type of spin off to get D&D into a real time 3D world has been done with blizzard mastering the format. Now we have a weird mix of elder scrolls type solo hero gameplay with the foundation built off classic D&D's math/co-op.

Classic mmo players want the numbers game back in full force but modern players just want to point the crosshair and get a headshot without worrying about which way the wind is blowing. For mmos to evolve we need to get away from the rules of D&D and build a new type of role playing game that isn't all numbers. And we all know how bad first person RPG's with FPS style gameplay are with current hardware / game engines (darkfall). Hardware and bandwidth limitations are keeping developers from doing anything but tab target D&D based RPGs.
 
Rangoth

Rangoth

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I agree with Krug as well. It's the trap I am in right now. I'm not the best-MMO-pro-player in the world or anything, but better than a mouth-breather and capable of holding my own. Yet I can't commit to set days or times....so any decent guild is out for me. Even if I could commit the time I'm not sure I want to. I just like to log on and play for a bit randomly on boring days or whatever.

Sometimes my friends will let me in their guild but I don't get DKP or whatever, I'm just allowed to tag along when they are down a man or doing 1 step behind top tier content, and that is honestly the ideal situation for me, but also hard to find as slowly over the years my old EQ friends either quit or fragmented into different games.

I'm not sure this can be solved. MMOs have always been, beyond the basic level of playing skill, a time > * type of game. I don't see this changing because if you make the game NOT require time, but rather some type of playing skill, the top people max out too quick and leave.

Side note: As I evolve I'm actually leaning WAY more towards a DOTA style MMO. I don't mean PvP. I just mean fuck the open world and grinding bear asses quests and leveling. You have a character, it never "levels"(in the 1-50) sense, but rather you log in, goto the main lobby or whatever and join whatever dungeon/raid you want. The reward is maybe gear and bonuses or something. There will always be "you can play with us because your gear/level/whatever sucks, but I like the dungeon lobby idea.
 
RobXIII

RobXIII

Urinal Cake Consumption King
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Laerazi_sl said:
Newer games are far too controlled of an experience these days.

Every quest hub, every NPC, every spell, ability, etc. are balanced and doled out in the perfect amounts for players to consume at the developer's rate. In EverQuest, you could charm guards, you could drop all of your gold on the ground, you could fall to your death at level 1, you could loot someone elses corpse, you could train horrible groups of monsters on other players, you could even steal loot from other player kills. Today there are so many barriers and arrows pointing you to what you're SUPPOSED to do. There are no opportunities for discovery or ingenuity, unexpected moments, or revelations.

From about level 5 on you know exactly what your class does and you do that same thing up until end game and beyond. I remember in EverQuest, my bard had a ridiculous amount of utility in upwards of 80 songs in my song book. One of my favorite memories in EverQuest was soloing with my 60 bard in Chardok, seeing if I could get down to the gnome mask named and camp him. It was the hardest thing I've ever done, but I managed through a use of charming, mezz, healing, etc. I never even got the mask after camping him for days, but being able to pull that off was incredibly rewarding. I have similar adventures in Old Sebilis and Siren's Grotto where I actually got the Mask of Obtenebration and Lute of the Howler.

For some people, these controlled environments are what they actually want and kudos for them since there is a ton of this type of thing out there now.. but I think a lot of people want a more free-form world where you log into the game and are set into a world again; no hand-holding, no arrow pointing you to your next destination, just.. do whatever you want. See that fire on the horizon? I want to go there and see what it is. You don't have to be at quest hub 6 at level 23-25 to go there. Sure there might be challenging things there, but maybe you can defeat it with what you have.

I remember hearing about the Zul'Gurub plague in WoW or Kazzak trained to Stormwind.. the most memorable things I remember hearing about WoW were accidental and removed immediately after, because you don't want to hinder the controlled structure they have in place. What if a game not only let you do that, but instead allowed for ways to counter this type of thing. Let players defend the cities somehow, even if they are low level.

Until developers let up on the reigns, we will continue to see boring "worlds" with nothing to do but the same, tired formula. Interestingly, I think it was the original EQ's team inexperience that led to such an open-ended feeling experience. They didn't anticipate what the players would do and so they made something great by accident. This is why I'm hopeful some indie experience will be the one to make a return to this format.
Click to expand...
I play part time on P99, and agree. You can't really 'help' newbies in most other MMOs. Here you can buff the shiat out of people, give them old used gear, or go 4 zones over and res someone who desperately needs it. You can also help them kill stuff (or KS but the community remembers). Just waaaay too controlled nowadays, and I first noticed this feeling with EQ2 and it's controlled pulls, groups of mobs, no grey loot etc.
 
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