Racism - Lets keep it civil. Also, Gravy is white.

hodj

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Rather than linking a $133 book, why don't you give us the ELI5 version?
You can rent it on kindle for 13 bucks but gimme a sec and I'll see if I can't just provide some pictures so I don't have to type it all out.
 

chthonic-anemos

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Question for hodj and any other science grads.

Wealthy friends of mine from a rural area have a problem. Their family is the product of inbreeding and it's got to where these kids can't even make it through the public school system. How many generations will it take to reverse the negative effects of inbreeding?

The future isn't looking good for them. Their oldest boy is likely to lose the family fortune, he's so fucking retarded. He thinks a sand box is the same as an hourglass.
 

hodj

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Cad, here's the first two pages of the preface, which gives a broad overview of the text. If you really want to dig down into all of it though, you're really gonna need to read it. Its 15 chapters, each written by various PhDs in the fields of psychology, anthropology, sociology, biology and human genetics. Well researched, fully sourced. One of the best recent academic works on the subject, and directly tackles the Bell Curve and its data and conclusions in one section.

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Question for hodj and any other science grads.

Wealthy friends of mine from a rural area have a problem. Their family is the product of inbreeding and it's got to where these kids can't even make it through the public school system. How many generations will it take to reverse the negative effects of inbreeding?

The future isn't looking good for them. Their oldest boy is likely to lose the family fortune, he's so fucking retarded. He thinks a sand box is the same as an hourglass.
Okay, first of all lol.

The problem with inbreeding is that it allows for potentially damaging recessive alleles to become fixed in the inbreeding population (it also fucks up the hardy weinburg equilibrium equation but that's a different subject).

But probably just a generation or two, as long as they're outbreeding in those generations.

Seriously though. Don't fuck your family. And if you're going to fuck your family, wear a rubber.
 

Khane

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Everyone knows white people let black people beat them at sports so they don't loot and riot.
 

Cad

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Cad, here's the first two pages of the preface, which gives a broad overview of the text. If you really want to dig down into all of it though, you're really gonna need to read it. Its 15 chapters, each written by various PhDs in the fields of psychology, anthropology, sociology, biology and human genetics. Well researched, fully sourced. One of the best recent academic works on the subject, and directly tackles the Bell Curve and its data and conclusions in one section.

rrr_img_111422.jpg

rrr_img_111423.jpg
Hodj, honestly that sounds like weasel-word bullshit that I might write if I want to undermine someone's well-founded position. Deny assumptions, deny terms, and redefine the question to one that I enjoy answering and like the answer to.

I mean you don't get to start out saying you "debunked" the idea that races score differently on tests by saying that race doesn't exist. That just stupid.
 

Tuco

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Question for hodj and any other science grads.

Wealthy friends of mine from a rural area have a problem. Their family is the product of inbreeding and it's got to where these kids can't even make it through the public school system. How many generations will it take to reverse the negative effects of inbreeding?

The future isn't looking good for them. Their oldest boy is likely to lose the family fortune, he's so fucking retarded. He thinks a sand box is the same as an hourglass.
Based on evidence from Howard T, et all (2015) Fallout Shelter - Bethesda Softworks, after three generations you're good to go.
 

hodj

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If race does not exist, then yes, the idea that races score differently on tests is bullshit.

Its not weasel words. Its the science. I suggest you actually, seriously, consider reading the book.

This is the scientific consensus, Cad, and it is founded on 100 years plus of serious examination of these issues from a variety of angles. If you'd like a good break down of why race does not exist, then read this next spoiler

Genetics and Race
Wade's primary argument is that the distances between human populations resulted in genetic bottlenecks that prevented gene flow and resulted in the independent evolution of various lineages of human population clusters centered on continental islands. (Wade 1, 76-77) While having already addressed the sort of mythological foundations of this narrative, I feel it is important to now tackle the substance of it as well. Was gene flow reduced in prehistoric human populations such that they were able to evolve independently from one another?
Alan R. Templeton, of Washington University in St. Louis, has quite a bit to say on this matter in his article "The Genetic and Evolutionary Significance of Human Races" published in Jefferson M. Fish's compilation of works on race titled "Race and Intelligence; Separating Science from Myth". First, however, it should be noted that a sort of shell game is played by people such as Nicholas Wade when they use the word race. The classic definition of race in the context of human variation tends to indicate distinct populations grouped based on a combination of geographic and phenotypic characteristics, such as skin and hair color, cranial morphologies, and other physical features. (Lieberman and Rice 3) The more modern definition of race seems to conform more with the biological concept of subspecies, which can be defined as "a biological classification that ranks immediately below a species and designates a population of a particular geographic region gene-tically distinguishable from other such populations of the same species and capable of interbreeding successfully with them where its range overlaps with theirs." (Merriam-Webster)
The shell game comes from different standards used to define sub-species in non-human species versus how subspecies is recognized in human populations. As Templeton notes "humans have tended to interpret their own intraspecific diversity in ways that are often inconsistent with how humans analyze and interpret genetic diversity in other species." (Templeton 31) He continues by pointing out that "Of particular importance for the concept of race is the relative amount of genetic diversity that exists among individuals within a population versus the amount. that exists among populations." (Templeton 33)
Templeton builds a case from this point that the "distinct evolutionary lineage within a species" definition is the "defacto definition of subspecies in conservation biology," and that "this definition requires. genetic differentiation due to barriers to genetic exchange that persist for sufficient periods of time to have detectable genetic consequences." (Templeton 35) Then he goes on to test whether human variation fits this definition in the same ways that other subspecies of other species would.
Templeton states that "a standard criterion for a subspecies or race in the non-human literature under the definition of subspecies.is to have Fst values of at least .25 to .30." (Templeton 36) An Fst value is described as "a summary of genetic differentiation among groups." (Jakobsson et al 1) Templeton expands upon this definition in order to help elucidate its strength in describing diversity. He states "Fst measures the relative amount of genetic diversity found within and among populations, with 0 indicating all genetic diversity is individual variation with no differences.among populations, and 1 indicating all individuals are genetically identical within a local population but that genetic diversity exists as fixed differences among populations." (Templeton 36)
So, with this understanding of Fst values and their purpose in helping to demonstrate genetic diversity in populations, Templeton takes a long and critical look at the claim that human genetic diversity meets the standards applied to subspecies in nonhuman populations. His results are relatively clear, and straightforward. The average Fst for human populations, averaged across 16 populations spread out across Africa, Europe, Asia, the Americas, and the Australian and Pacific regions, is .156. (Templeton 36) As Templeton explains, this is "too small to have taxonomic significance under the traditional subspecies definition with the threshold values used in the recent non-human literature." (Templeton 36)
Templeton tackles some issues with this approach, such as differences between specific groups that exceed this value. (Templeton 36-38) The largest difference is between sub-Saharan African and Melanesian populations, at .265. The caveat, Templeton explains, is that "[these groups] would not be considered separate races by [this criteria] because geographically intermediate populations exist [between them] that fall well below this threshold." (Templeton 38) So Templeton demonstrates first that genetic variation between human populations is both consistent with the sorts of clinal variation models often cited by social scientists as a justification for disregarding racial classifications, and that the diversity amongst human populations is well below common standards other subspecies in non-human populations are held to.
But were the genetic bottlenecks significant barriers to gene flow between these populations? Templeton addresses this issue as well, utilizing a formula that relates the Fst value to local population size (N) multiplied by migration rate between isolated populations (m). (Templeton 38) He demonstrates that, with an Nm ? 1.0, "massive amounts of movements of large numbers of individuals are not needed to explain the modest level of genetic differentiation observed in human races." (Templeton 38-39) He also points out that "for the human Fst value of .156, Nm = 1.35." (Templeton 38) What this indicates is that modern genetic differences between these populations could be achieved with minimal exchange of members between these populations. (Templeton 39) So, genetic bottlenecking was not sufficient to prevent this gene flow, and human populations have been evolving as a mostly complete whole throughout our history, despite geographic distances and isolation.
This appears to be a strong rebuttal to Wade's primary assertion justifying his conclusion for racial classification. But one researcher's work probably shouldn't be relied upon too heavily to rebut Wade's claims. Are there other findings consistent with Templeton's research, and how do they relate to Wade's claims?
Returning to the May 2009 issue of the American Journal of Physical Anthropology, "Race Reconciled", we find a very interesting article. The article, authored by Keith L. Hunley, Meghan E. Healy (both associated with the University of New Mexico in Albuquerque) and Jeffrey C. Long (University of Michigan at Ann Arbor), is titled "The Global Pattern of Gene Identity Variation Reveals a History of Long-Range Migrations, Bottlenecks, and Local Mate Exchange: Implications For Biological Race". In it, the team of Hunley et al "used computer simulations to identify the global geographic pattern of neutral genetic variation predicted by several of the views of human variation." (Hunley et al 36) Four models were chosen; independent evolution of regions, isolation by distance, serial fissions, and a nested regions model.
These computer models were compared to actual data on human genetic diversity patterning to discern which, if any, matched the observations of human genetic diversity found in "neutral genetic data collected from a large sample of globally distributed human populations." (Hunley et al 36) The real world data used for comparison utilized 783 autosomal microsatellites from over 1000 individuals drawn from 53 populations in seven geographic regions (Africa, the Middle East, Europe, South Central Asia, Oceania, East Asia, and the Americas). (Hunley et al 36) The unit used for this study is gene identity, which Hunley et al define as "the probability that two randomly drawn copies of a locus are identical by state. The two copies. may be sampled from within the same local populations, or. from different local populations." (Hunley et al 36)
It is important to understand the differences between each view of human diversity being tested, so a short summary of each will follow:
1) Independent Region Model:
a) Assumes independent evolution of geographically distinct populations
b) Gene identities highest within local populations, medial between local populations sharing geographic region, and lowest between local populations in separate geographic regions
(Hunley et al 36)
2) Isolation by Distance
a) Not consistent with any taxonomic concept of race
b) Results from sexual selection of mates from nearby local populations, rather than in group selection within a local population
c) Results from monotonic decay in gene identity
d) Gene identity high and uniform in local populations, monotonic decay correlated with geographic distance
(Hunley et al 36-37)
3) Serial Fission
a) Single ancestral population grows and divides
b) Parental population persists, daughter population grows and divides
c) Gene identity lowest in original population, and increases with each new division
d) Consistent with taxonomic units above and at population level
(Hunley et al 37)
4) Nested Regions
a) Large bottlenecks during initial colonization of geographic regions
b) Serial fission with larger bottlenecks
c) Ppredicts multiple uniform gene identity strata based on time of division
d) Eeach strata should be uniform in gene identity throughout each geographic region
e) Potentially consistent with taxonomic units above and at population level
(Hunley et al 37)

Hunley et al report that no single simulation matched the observed actual data, but of the four, the nested regions model was closest. (Hunley et al 44-45) So they modified the nested regions model to account for 5% migration between groups that were continuous geographically. (Hunley et al 43) The results from this fifth simulation were a significant improvement in terms of fit. (Hunley et al 43)
What this indicates is that serial fissions with some bottlenecking occurred, with migration leading to gene exchange between populations. (Hunley et al 45) For all intents and purposes, this conclusion justifies that genetic bottlenecking was not sufficient to reduce gene flow and allow for independent regional evolution of human lineages based around continents.
Some other observations Hunley et al make regarding the relevance of this inquiry to the race issue are that "the problem of finding a threshold level of gene identity for declaring taxonomic significance. remain unsolved. the between population pattern is nested in sub-Saharan Africa, and because sub-Saharan African populations straddle the root of the species-wide population tree, there can be no sub-Saharan race under. [this] criterion." (Hunley et al 45) Thus, this nested variation excludes classic definitions of race and is "at odds with the patterns of diversity that evolutionary independence of regions would produce." (Hunley et al 45)
Hunley et al conclude that "traditional anthropological classifications placed human populations that reside on different continents at the same level of classification (i.e. race), a classification that takes into account evolutionary relationships and the nested cascade of diversity would require that sub-Saharan Africans are not a race, and that nested sub-races would be necessary to account for non-sub-Saharan Africans." (Hunley et al 45) This needlessly complex over-splitting of human geographic populations would be unwarranted and offers no benefits over clinal variation models in terms of elucidating human variation patterns.
The final article reviewed for this work is authored by David Serre and Svante P??bo, both of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthro-pology in Leipzig, Germany. Titled "Evidence for Gradients of Human Genetic Diversity Within and Among Continents", the purpose of this study was to determine if "worldwide genetic diversity is best described as discrete units. or by continuous variation in allele frequencies." (Serre and P??bo 1679)
Serre and P??bo created two data sets to test this hypothesis. The first was based on populations, and "consists of 89 individuals sampled from 15 populations" while the second, based on geography, "consists of 90 individuals from 52 different populations, selected such that their geographic distribution. approximates the distribution of human populations as a whole and includes areas where Africa, Asia, and Europe meet." (Serre and P??bo 1680)
When they examined the two data sets with an inference of two populations, they found two very different views on human genetic diversity. In the population based data set, they found that 83% of the individuals fell into either one, or the other, of the two inferred populations. (Serre and P??bo 1680) The inferred populations, one African and the other non-African, had high values in regards to ancestry (85%-100%). (Serre and P??bo 1680)
The geography based data set dealing with individuals, on the other hand, demonstrated that "all individuals are estimated to be 40-50% admixed between the two inferred populations, and [with] no qualitative difference between Africans and non-Africans" (Serre and P??bo 1680) Serre and P??bo point out that the sort of continental groupings seen in studies such as Rosenberg et al are likely related to sampling methodology based on selecting from the most distal portions of each continent. (Serre and P??bo 1680)
Another interesting aspect of this article is that it directly rebuts Rosenberg et al, probably Wade's most important source of data for his own position. It should be noted here that, shortly after Wade's book was published in 2014, over 135 geneticists, anthropologists, and biologists signed a letter to the New York Times, republished on Stanford's own web cluster, decrying Wade's misuse of their findings to justify his conclusions. One of the main five signatories, the people who actually drafted the letter, was none other than Noah Rosenberg! This letter will be referred to in the remainder of this text as "Coop et al". Other signatories to Coop et al included Neil Risch, Richard Myers, and Jun Z. Li, all of whom are heavily cited by Wade when making his case. (Coop et al 1)
The salient portion of the letter is reprinted here:
"Wade juxtaposes an incomplete and inaccurate account of our research on human genetic differences with speculation that recent natural selection has led to worldwide differences in I.Q. test results, political institutions and economic development. We reject Wade's implication that our findings substantiate his guesswork. They do not.
We are in full agreement that there is no support from the field of population genetics for Wade's conjectures." (Coop et al 1)
Wade's response to this letter will be addressed in my discussion.
Returning to Serre and P??bo, as mentioned, they tackle Rosenberg et al by testing their results to see if the continental clustering found in that study is an artifact of sampling methodology. The full methodology involved is too long to relay here, but the thrust of Serre and P??bo's work here involves attempting to "find a stable assignment of. individuals to inferred populations in which allele frequencies are allowed to be independent of one another." (Serre and P??bo 1681) This is opposed to Rosenberg et al's methodology which correlated these allele frequencies to one another. (Serre and P??bo 1681)
The results of this test demonstrated that "when the whole data set is analyzed, the choice of the model does not change the results, but neither does it allow finding a stable representation of human genetic diversity." (Serre and P??bo 1681) Further, the results "show that population based sample schemes. produce views of human genetic diversity characterized by discrete units of diversity that tend to correspond to continents. This is especially true for samples in which few geographically disconnected populations from different continents are sampled." (Serre and P??bo 1682)
Serre and P??bo's conclusions demonstrate, once again, that continental clustering is the result of design frameworks that emphasize extremes of human populations. They state unequivocally that "using a homogenous sampling strategy and a model in which allele frequencies in different inferred populations are allowed to be independent, [they] find a stable and reproducible representation of human genetic diversity in which the extent of admixture between individuals. changes continuously. without any major discontinuities." (Serre and P??bo 1683)
Emphasis is placed on the fact that this does not indicate that no variation between populations exists, but rather that these variations are small (9.2% between continents) with the majority of the variation (87.6%) between individuals. (Serre and P??bo 1683) This confirms the classic findings from researchers, such as Lewontin, that clinal variation is a better representation than continental clustering for human genetic diversity. Serre and P??bo believe this finding rebuts Neil Risch's claim that racial classifications are valid (Serre and P??bo 1683), and the authors state that they "see no reason to assume that races represent any units of relevance for understanding human genetic history." (Serre and P??bo 1683)
 

Tuco

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Hodj, is it / would it be possible to study the genome of an individual and develop a metric of a desirable characteristic ex: their fast-twitch muscle density?
 

Cad

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If race does not exist, then yes, the idea that races score differently on tests is bullshit.

Its not weasel words. Its the science. I suggest you actually, seriously, consider reading the book.

This is the scientific consensus, Cad, and it is founded on 100 years plus of serious examination of these issues from a variety of angles. If you'd like a good break down of why race does not exist, then read this next spoiler
It sounds like weasel words because it's just denying the issue in the first place. Let me de-Tanoomba this for a second and say, I don't give a fuck what word you use to describe race, whether it be subspecies, race, classification, grouping, or any other word that you'll then jump to define by FST values and "scientific acceptance of the word subspecies" or whatever.

It sounds like what you're saying is, all of the race constructs and supposed predispositions that we foist upon "races" are socially and culturally driven, which just means you're a #2 on my original post, right? Don't type 1200 words on this, yes or no will do.
 

hodj

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Hodj, is it / would it be possible to study the genome of an individual and develop a metric of a desirable characteristic ex: their fast-twitch muscle density?
Not yet, but possibly one day. The exact functions of every gene isn't well understood yet, and it becomes more and more complicated as we have begun to better understand that many genes work in conjunction with one another, and that epigenetic modification (the methylation of DNA to turn various genes on and off) can alter phenotype as well.

It would require probably more computing power than we have available at this time as well.

The relationship between genes and the resultant phenotype is still in the midst of being worked out. We have to remember that the full human genome wasn't sequenced until 15 years ago (and even then it wasn't the entire genome, but rather something like 95% of it or whatever)

We could also quibble over what you mean by "a metric of desirable characteristic", but I think probably what you mean is a range of the traits which might be most beneficial to have? Desirable is a term that has to be shaped by the environment it is found in, I think. There's a quote that goes something like "Everyone is a genius, but if you measure a fish by how well it can climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing it is stupid" that is sorta applicable to that type of discussion. Desirable in what ways and by what standards, you see?

It sounds like weasel words because it's just denying the issue in the first place.
No, its not. And calling it "Tanoomba-ing" things shows you're not interested in actually discussing the issue rationally.

I cited you a treatise of 15 well researched articles, by people who have spent DECADES researching this subject, with PhDs in a broad set of fields related to the subject, and I cited you a large portion of a paper I wrote citing 3 major groups of genetic researchers, including two of the best known and most well respected researchers in the field of Human Genetics, Paabo and Serre, who work for one of the best institutions in the WORLD for the study of human genetics research, the Max Planck Institute, and the issue is not denial on our part. We have looked at the evidence, rigorously tested it, and found the presumption of race to have no merit. We haven't ignored or denied it, we've REFUTED IT.

Okay bro?

Pontificating from an altar of ignorance, refusing to read the material cited to you, and then employing a dysphemistic fallacy by attempting to slander these extremely salient authorities on the subject as biased and "Tanoombas" is shit showing this discussion.
 

Mario Speedwagon

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I think what Cad is getting at is that, regardless of whether or not you scientifically classify them as races, there are disparate populations of humans that exhibit similar characteristics that don't all seem to be explained away by "lol culture". The question is why is this the way it is and the question of FST values is largely irrelevant to that.
 

hodj

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I think what Cad is getting at is that, regardless of whether or not you scientifically classify them as races, there are disparate populations of humans that exhibit similar characteristicsthat don't all seemto be explained away by "lol culture". The question is why is this the way it is and the question of FST values is largely irrelevant to that.
See that statement of "doesn't all seem to be"?

That's the issue.

What is intuitive is often not correct when the intuitions have been rigorously reviewed.

Evolution isn't intuitive. "How could I have come from monkeys if there are still monkeys". The Earth orbiting the Sun wasn't intuitive, either. The lack of inherent racial differences in human populations is the same way.

What you're describing is APOPHENIA

Apophenia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Apophenia /?p?'fi?ni?/ is the human tendency to perceive meaningful patterns within random data.
 

Lanx

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Slanted eyes was either sexual or environmental, and just because the same environmental pressures were in two places, doesn't mean the same gene would mutate.
No, sexual only holds true for white ppl, in all my life talking dirty w/ how many asian men, japs, koreans, thais, chinese, whatever. None of us have ever said.
"damn dat bitch look FINE! you can barely see the whites in her slits"

You white ppl with yellow fever, the only thing you can say you like about asians that is outwardly visual is long black hair and almond eyes, you obsess over those features like a frigging foot fetish, it's pretty damn scary.

my wife and i (later i told some other yellow fellows) watched this doc


and jesus christ, no one could understand this old white guy with an asian fetish. There was this one time in the doc where he describes how much he loves the almond eye, and it freaked the shit out of me, (i can't find that part) i actually paused it and looked at my wifes eyes!
 

Cad

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See that statement of "doesn't all seem to be"?

That's the issue.

What is intuitive is often not correct when the intuitions have been rigorously reviewed.

Evolution isn't intuitive. "How could I have come from monkeys if there are still monkeys". The Earth orbiting the Sun wasn't intuitive, either. The lack of inherent racial differences in human populations is the same way.

What you're describing is APOPHENIA

Apophenia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Apophenia /?p?'fi?ni?/ is the human tendency to perceive meaningful patterns within random data.
I think I can get totally on board with a statement saying that the variations we perceive between "races" as we perceive them are social and cultural, and not biological. I just think that fits nearly into a category I already described.
 

Tuco

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We could also quibble over what you mean by "a metric of desirable characteristic", but I think probably what you mean is a range of the traits which might be most beneficial to have? Desirable is a term that has to be shaped by the environment it is found in, I think. There's a quote that goes something like "Everyone is a genius, but if you measure a fish by how well it can climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing it is stupid" that is sorta applicable to that type of discussion. Desirable in what ways and by what standards, you see?
Desirable in terms of its ability to predict a given individual's vertical jump, for example.
 

Mario Speedwagon

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Please name them. Be as specific as you can.

Because I'm going to predict you are going to choose an activity performed by a small set of the GLOBAL population.
I can't name them personally and I don't really care to either. It's never been satisfactorily evidenced to me that all differences between behaviors and capabilities of all human populations are merely socially and culturally derived but I haven't really researched it much either because it's of no great consequence to me. Regardless of what the real reasons may or may not be, on an individual level, I'm going to treat everyone based on my interactions with them not on what groups they belong to.

I was just trying to clarify what I think Cad was asking.
 

Lendarios

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I understand you. my follow up that his standards were very narrow, instead of picking a global sport, he picked a very american sport; he also picked a test that is unique to america, and then extrapolated the results to all over the world. I also want to say sports are cultural by nature, so is very hard to get a human baseline.
 

hodj

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Regardless of what the real reasons may or may not be, on an individual level,I'm going to treat everyone based on my interactions with them not on what groups they belong to.
To me, that's really what's most important about this debate. At the end of the day, people should be treated as individuals, fundamentally, and judged based on the merits of their own character. That's sort of my hippy libertarian sort of world view and always has been.

Desirable in terms of its ability to predict a given individual's vertical jump, for example.
You might be able to determine the range of maximums and minimums possible to be achieved, but the actual physiological outcome is going to depend on environment. I could probably jump 6 feet had I spent most of my life running and jumping and exercising my legs and muscles enough to support that, but since I've spent most of my life in academia and sitting around reading and playing video games and arguing stupid bullshit on the internet, seriously doubt I'm going to be jumping 6 feet vertical any time soon, you dig?

I think I can get totally on board with a statement saying that the variations we perceive between "races" as we perceive them are social and cultural, and not biological. I just think that fits nearly into a category I already described.
Then I don't think we are really in disagreement here in any way that really matters.

As Dr Mario said, its really about treating people as individuals.

Added:

This has been a good discussion and I've enjoyed it.