Ryan Lochte scandal megathread

Gavinmad

Mr. Poopybutthole
42,489
50,658
Tanoomba. sthop

The irony here being that if anyone in this thread is mimicking Tanoomba, it's you. You refuse to acknowledge clear evidence like photographs of an undamaged bathroom or testimony of a local eyewitness, you try to move goalposts, and you just make up nonsensical bullshit like 'citizens arrest with exit clause'.

The only relevant part is the irrefutable fact that these men were held at gunpoint until they handed over money. There is absolutely no possible interpretation of the events where this does not constitute armed robbery.
 
  • 2Like
  • 1Solidarity
Reactions: 2 users

yerm

Golden Baronet of the Realm
6,009
15,486
Damn I was robbed. I just realized.

10 years ago Ii rear ended this car. I didn' see him after making a right turn, The guy gets out and says, $100 or I'm calling the cops and report it. I gave him the money.

Damn. I should have called the cops. I was robbed I tell you, robbed.

I was blind all these years.

Did this happen in a really bad area, late at night, and the other driver pulled a gun on you before making these threats? If so yes you were indeed robbed.

It's not defending Lochte as a good guy or discounting that he likely damaged a sign. It's a simple argument here: he had money taken from him at gunpoint, and the media bullied him into retracting because of one embellishment (held against forehead vs 5 feet away), and proceeded to demonize him publicly, victim blame the shit out of him, you name it.

Maybe we need to just pull out analogies like you prefer to use:
A. A teacher tells his student to give oral sex or fail the class. Is it rape?
B. A girl trespasses onto private property. The owner pulls a gun and says take it in the pooper or I call the cops. Rape?
C. Ryan Lochte damages an advertising poster. A local security guard pulls a gun and says take it in the pooper or I call the cops. Rape?
D. You post stupid shit in a Kegkilla thread. Cad says either you let Ravvenn give you a BBBJ while we film it, or you get banned. Rape?

Tanoomba. sthop

What are you trying to do here? Am I following your logic correctly in saying we are defending someone as bad as Tanoomba? If so, listen here and listen well: FUCK that attitude. The quality of the individual does not change whether they are guilty or not. That is absolute bullshit. If I'm wrong on this part please correct me, because it sounds an awful fucking lot like your logic with these Tanoomba references amounts to Ryan Lochte is a douche so he deserved it. That is bullshit.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions: 1 user

Gavinmad

Mr. Poopybutthole
42,489
50,658
See I wasn't even going to dignify that blatant false equivalence with a response.

*edit*

I'd love to see Lochte sue every single media outlet that ran with the story for libel. You don't actually have to know a story is false to be committing libel for publishing it do you?
 

Malakriss

Golden Baronet of the Realm
12,372
11,777
If the guard demanded 400 from Lochte or else he wouldn't let his buddies go, would it be ransom?
 

Lendarios

Trump's Staff
<Gold Donor>
19,360
-17,424
The irony here being that if anyone in this thread is mimicking Tanoomba, it's you. You refuse to acknowledge clear evidence like photographs of an undamaged bathroom or testimony of a local eyewitness, you try to move goalposts, and you just make up nonsensical bullshit like 'citizens arrest with exit clause'.

The only relevant part is the irrefutable fact that these men were held at gunpoint until they handed over money. There is absolutely no possible interpretation of the events where this does not constitute armed robbery.

Let me tell you this. If you can find a case in the USA, where someone has been found guilty of armed robbery, with a similar situation. I'll withdraw.

Conditions are:, someone causes property damage. Then they are held, with or without a gun, until payment is procured and also the victim was prevented from calling the cops.
 

Gavinmad

Mr. Poopybutthole
42,489
50,658
Let me tell you this. If you can find a case in the USA, where someone has been found guilty of armed robbery, with a similar situation. I'll withdraw.

Conditions are:, someone causes property damage. Then they are held, with or without a gun, until payment is procured and also the victim was prevented from calling the cops.

Uh, I don't have to cite a case for this because there's no scenario where this isn't a crime in the USA too. You are only allowed to detain me if you are performing a citizen's arrest, which requires you to call the cops and then let them take over the scene. If you detain me and then demand money from me without a gun it's extortion, if you demand money from me with a gun it's armed robbery.

If we come to an accord where I agree to pay you in exchange for you not calling the cops in the first place, then you are not committing a crime. If at any point you prevent me from leaving the scene, without calling the police and turning it into a proper citizen's arrest, you are committing a crime. If you subject me to any kind of duress beyond 'Im gonna call the cops", you are committing a crime.

The burden is on you to cite a similar case where it wasn't considered a crime, because you are the one making a claim that is completely inconsistent with the way that laws actually work.
 

Lendarios

Trump's Staff
<Gold Donor>
19,360
-17,424
What are you trying to do here? Am I following your logic correctly in saying we are defending someone as bad as Tanoomba? If so, listen here and listen well: FUCK that attitude. The quality of the individual does not change whether they are guilty or not. That is absolute bullshit. If I'm wrong on this part please correct me, because it sounds an awful fucking lot like your logic with these Tanoomba references amounts to Ryan Lochte is a douche so he deserved it. That is bullshit.

Tanoomba is famous for ignoring context.

The context been the actions prior to been held at gun point.

He broke shit, was forced to pay for shit. His ego got hurt and made an unsubstantiated accusation the next day, that is his fault.
 

Gavinmad

Mr. Poopybutthole
42,489
50,658
Tanoomba is famous for ignoring context.

The context been the actions prior to been held at gun point.

He broke shit, was forced to pay for shit. His ego got hurt and made an unsubstantiated accusation the next day, that is his fault.

Except that the context here is actually completely irrelevant. Nothing he did before he was held at gunpoint matters. As I already said, it wouldn't matter if he committed petty vandalism, rape, or murder, when you hold someone at gunpoint, demand money from them, and then let them leave, you are committing armed robbery.

Like, even if we were in the process of extraditing him back to Brazil to face rape/murder charges...he would still be a victim of an armed robbery.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions: 1 user

Lendarios

Trump's Staff
<Gold Donor>
19,360
-17,424
If we come to an accord where I agree to pay you in exchange for you not calling the cops in the first place, then you are not committing a crime. If at any point you prevent me from leaving the scene, without calling the police and turning it into a proper citizen's arrest, you are committing a crime. If you subject me to any kind of duress beyond 'Im gonna call the cops", you are committing a crime.

There is plenty of duress involved in a citizens arrest, there is physical restraint, even punches, and kicks and broken shit.

What do you think it is, you ask nicely for the guy to stay put?

Sorry I mean the other person, I'm such a shitlord.
 

Lendarios

Trump's Staff
<Gold Donor>
19,360
-17,424
As I already said, it wouldn't matter if he committed petty vandalism, rape, or murder, when you hold someone at gunpoint, demand money from them, and then let them leave, you are committing armed robbery.

Like, even if we were in the process of extraditing him back to Brazil to face rape/murder charges...he would still be a victim of an armed robbery.

This is where we disagree.
 

Gavinmad

Mr. Poopybutthole
42,489
50,658
There is plenty of duress involved in a citizens arrest, there is physical restraint, even punches, and kicks and broken shit.

What do you think it is, you ask nicely for the guy to stay put?

Sorry I mean the other person, I'm such a shitlord.

I'll give you a pass on this one since you have trouble with English. The duress comment refers to an accord not to call the police, not a citizen's arrest.

This is where we disagree.

Fortunately the law agrees with me and the law trumps your feelings.
 

Lendarios

Trump's Staff
<Gold Donor>
19,360
-17,424
Link the case then. Ill 100% admit I am wrong if you find me a case that agrees with you.
 

Gavinmad

Mr. Poopybutthole
42,489
50,658
Link the case then. Ill 100% admit I am wrong if you find me a case that agrees with you.

I don't need to link a case because the law, as written, agrees with me. The burden of proof is on you here, not me.

Let me try one more time to make you understand, because I'm going to go take a nap. The one and only thing a citizen's arrest allows you to do is detain a person until the cops arrive. It protects you from criminal liability for reasonable actions taken to keep that person detained, assuming the person was actually guilty of the crime he was being detained for. Any action you take beyond what is reasonably necessary to keep a person detained until the cops arrive is criminal.

If you detain someone without even calling the cops, that detention itself is criminal, as is any action you take to keep that person detained, or any demand you make before you allow that person to leave.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions: 1 user

Lendarios

Trump's Staff
<Gold Donor>
19,360
-17,424
So I have to find a case where a person was held against their will, while committing a criminal act and was asked to paid, in exchange for his liberty, and such action did not result in an indictment of the person holding the gun?

Is that It?
 

yerm

Golden Baronet of the Realm
6,009
15,486
Let me tell you this. If you can find a case in the USA, where someone has been found guilty of armed robbery, with a similar situation. I'll withdraw.

Conditions are:, someone causes property damage. Then they are held, with or without a gun, until payment is procured and also the victim was prevented from calling the cops.

I'll start looking. In the meantime:

NJ Extortion Lawyer | New Jersey Extortion Attorney

"Extortion can also involve the “abuse of authority of office.” Examples include a government official or a police officer demanding money, services, or property in order to avoid a threat of some consequence."

If I do find something apparently I should refer them to a lawyer because they can sue because you are NOT allowed to do this crap where I live. Go figure.
 

Lendarios

Trump's Staff
<Gold Donor>
19,360
-17,424
Cad Cad will probably tear this down, but here we go

Guy extors blowjob from prostitute.

People v. Hesslink (1985)


Guy holds a prostitute in citizens arrest , demands a blowjob in exchange for not turning her in. Im guess he gets the BJ. Then she presses charges

On appeal the trial court vacated the extortion claim. Saying that there was no wrongful use of force of fear.

Discussion

I

The Extortion Conviction

Sufficiency of the Evidence

As we shall explain, we agree with defendant's contention that extortion is a specific intent crime and that his conviction of that charge must be reversed because the trial court failed to instruct the jury on the required specific intent. However, because of the nature of several of defendant's arguments concerning the sufficiency of the evidence and the possibility of retrial on that charge, it is appropriate that we address preliminarily his contention that the extortion conviction is not supported by substantial evidence.

[1] Citing a long list of cases in which the accused demanded from the victim a specific sum of money, defendant points out that he did not and argues that evidence of a request or demand for a specific sum is required to support a conviction for extortion. We do not agree. Penal Code section 518 which defines the crime of extortion contains no such requirement. It reads: "Extortion is the obtaining of property from another, with his consent, ... induced by a wrongful use of force or fear, or under color of official right." (Italics added.)

It is true that in many cases a specific sum of money was requested or demanded, but so far as we are informed no appellate decision has held or stated that evidence of a demand or request for a specific sum is a prerequisite to a conviction of extortion.

[2] Next, defendant asserts that he had a legal right to make a citizen's arrest of the victim for the misdemeanor of soliciting an act of prostitution (Pen. Code, § 647, subd. (b)), and argues that since he had the right to make such an arrest, his threat to arrest the victim could not be "a wrongful use of ... fear" under the statute. Not so. First, even if defendant had the right to arrest the victim, he was not at liberty to threaten to arrest her for the purpose of extorting money or property from her. (People v. Powell (1920) 50 Cal. App. 436, 441 [195 P. 456]; cf. People v. Beggs (1918) 178 [167 Cal. App. 3d 788] Cal. 79, 84-85 [179 P. 152].) As stated by the court in Powell: "But we do not think that, merely because of the conceded guilt of the complaining witness, defendant is thereby relieved of the pains and penalties of the offense charged--extortion .... Under section 518, ... obtaining the payment of money from a violator of the ordinance referred to by a threat of arrest and detention if the payment be not made, is extortion, and this without regard to the exercise of good faith in threatening to make the arrest." (50 Cal. App. 436, 441.)

....
Failure to Instruct on Specific Intent

[3a, 4a] As noted preliminarily, we agree with defendant that extortion is a specific intent crime and that the trial court was required sua sponte to so instruct the jury. [3b, 4b, 5] It is well settled, of course, that the trial court has a duty in criminal cases, even in the absence of a request, to instruct the jury on the general principles of law relevant to the issues raised by the evidence. (E.g., People v. Wickersham (1982) 32 Cal. 3d 307, 323 [185 Cal. Rptr. 436, 650 P.2d 311]; People v. St. Martin (1970) 1 Cal. 3d 524, 531 [83 Cal. Rptr. 166, 463 P.2d 390].) The general principles of law governing the case are those principles closely and openly connected with the facts before the court and necessary for the jury's understanding of the case. (Id) The duty to instruct on the general principles of law governing the case encompasses at a minimum the elements that must be proved to support a conviction. (People v. Ford (1964) 60 Cal. 2d 772, 792-793 [36 Cal. Rptr. 620, 388 P.2d 892].) Thus, in a case in which specific intent is a [167 Cal. App. 3d 789] required element, the court must instruct the jury as to that requirement even in the absence of a request. (People v. Ford, supra, 60 Cal. 2d 772, 793, and cases there cited.)

[3c, 4c] The dispositive question therefore is whether the crime of extortion requires proof of a specific intent. Urging it does not, the Attorney General relies on the generally accepted approach to the problem set forth in People v. Hood (1969) 1 Cal. 3d 444, 456-457 [82 Cal. Rptr. 618, 462 P.2d 370]: "Specific and general intent have been notoriously difficult terms to define and apply, and a number of text writers recommend that they be abandoned altogether. [Citation omitted.] Too often the characterization of a particular crime as one of specific or general intent is determined solely by the presence or absence of words describing psychological phenomena--'intent' or 'malice,' for example--in the statutory language defining the crime. When the definition of a crime consists of only the description of a particular act, without reference to intent to do a further act or achieve a future consequence, we ask whether the defendant intended to do the proscribed act. This intention is deemed to be a general criminal intent. When the definition refers to defendant's intent to do some further act or achieve some additional consequence, the crime is deemed to be one of specific intent." (Italics added; accordPeople v. Daniels (1975) 14 Cal. 3d 857, 860 [122 Cal. Rptr. 872, 537 P.2d 1232].)

As previously quoted, Penal Code section 518 reads in relevant part: "Extortion is the obtaining of property from another, with his consent, ... induced by a wrongful use of force or fear, or under color of official right." Applying the Hood formulation to this language, the Attorney General argues that the act proscribed is "the obtaining of property," that until the property is obtained the crime is not complete and that after the property is obtained there is no further act to be done or no further consequence to be achieved and that, therefore, the crime must be one of general intent rather than specific intent.

While we cannot fault the logic in the argument, we are unable to agree with it. We think the problem stems from the way in which the statute is worded. In substance, what is proscribed is the successful wrongful use of force or fear to obtain property from another with his or her consent. Viewed from that standpoint, the elements of the offense are: (1) A wrongful use of force or fear, (2) with the specific intent of inducing the victim to consent to the defendant's obtaining his or her property, (3) which does in fact induce such consent and results in the defendant's obtaining property from the victim. Applying the Hood formulation to the elements thus stated, the intent required is seen to be a specific one. The crime requires an unlawful use of force or fear with the intent of achieving a further consequence, [167 Cal. App. 3d 790]the inducement of another person to consent to the actor's obtaining the other's property. (See 31 Am.Jur.2d, Extortion, Blackmail, etc., § 9, pp. 906-907; cf. People v. Francisco (1931) 112 Cal. App. 442, 444 [297 P. 34].)

....

Even if it were otherwise, however, under the evidence adduced in the instant case we could not conclude the error was harmless. Defendant never made any express request or demand for money. The victim testified that without prior discussion of her paying defendant any money, she reached into her pocket, pulled out the $50 and handed it to defendant in the hope that would cause him not to arrest her or take her to jail. One inference to be drawn from the evidence was that defendant intended by his conduct to obtain oral copulation without payment and that the $50 given him by the victim was an unexpected windfall.

We conclude the conviction for extortion must be reversed.

Too long . since the use of force or fear during a citizens arrest is allowed, it does not qualifies as wrongful use of force or fear.
 

Cad

I'm With HER ♀
<Bronze Donator>
24,496
45,437
First, even if defendant had the right to arrest the victim, he was not at liberty to threaten to arrest her for the purpose of extorting money or property from her.(People v. Powell (1920) 50 Cal. App. 436, 441 [195 P. 456]; cf. People v. Beggs (1918) 178 [167 Cal. App. 3d 788] Cal. 79, 84-85 [179 P. 152].

Defendant never made any express request or demand for money. The victim testified that without prior discussion of her paying defendant any money, she reached into her pocket, pulled out the $50 and handed it to defendant in the hope that would cause him not to arrest her or take her to jail.

Do you even fucking read these cases, I'm guessing not
 
  • 2Like
Reactions: 1 users