Science Ethics and Racism in Drug Enforcement Thread

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Lendarios

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You are all confusing ethical with moral, and legality, or even worst with efficacy. A shaman offering his services to someone is not unethical as long as the shaman believes he is right. On chinese traditional medicine, which btw predates western medication by a thousands of years, have their OWN ethics system,

Here is is a comparison of historical Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM)
http://jme.bmj.com/content/25/4/315.full.pdf

The earliest and most representative literature of medical ethics in China appeared in the seventh century. Sun Szu-miao (AD581-682), a famous physician, Taoist and alchemist, wrote a monograph entitled On the absolute sincerity of great physicians.6 He emphasised the necessity of a thorough education, rigorous conscientiousness and self-discipline, and explained that "compassion (tz'u)" and "humaneness (len) " were the basic values of medical practice. In summarising his work, it could be concluded that the principles of medical ethics are as follows:

THE PURPOSE OF MEDICAL PRACTICE
1. The object is to help, not to gain material goods.
2. Save life and do not kill any living creature.
3. Do not seek fame: virtuous conduct will be rewarded by humans and spirits.

THE REQUIREMENTS OF A GREAT PHYSICIAN
4. Master the foundations of medicine thoroughly, work energetically and unceasingly.
5. Be mentally calm and firm in disposition; do not give way to selfish wishes and desire.
6. Commit oneself with great compassion to save every living creature.
MANNER OF MEDICAL PRACTICE
7. Possess a clear mind and maintain a dignified appearance.
8. Do not be talkative, engage in provocative speech, or make fun of others.
9. Do not ponder upon self-interest and fortune; sympathise and help wholeheartedly.
10. Examine and diagnose carefully, prescribe accurately and cure effectively.
ATTITUDE TOWARDS PATIENTS
11. Treat everyone on an equal basis, no matter whether they are rich or poor.
12. Do not reject or despise a patient who suffers from abominable diseases such as ulcers and diarrhoea: be compassionate and sympathetic.
13. Do not enjoy oneself in a patient's house while the patient is suffering.
ATTITUDE TOWARDS OTHER PHYSICIANS
14. Do not belittle another physician in order to exalt one's own virtue.
15. Do not discuss others and decide about their rights and wrongs.

(AD1627-1707) Ten commandments for physicians in Chang-shih-i-tung (Chang's general medicine)," and so on. These articles cannot be addressed in detail here, but the author will refer to them in the following discussion.

On reviewing these ancient literatures concerning medical ethics, we find that they have much in common and can be summed up in the following principles:

To appreciate the value of life and practise medicine with a heart of compassion and humaneness.
To master Confucianism prior to learning medicine.
To master medical knowledge by studying reliable sources diligently and extensively.
To improve clinical skill and maintain a high professional standard.
To be frugal, not to be greedy for wealth and fame.
To treat patients equally, and as if they were your family.
To be sincere, decorous, devoted, absorbed and selfless in treating patients.
To treat female patients only in the presence of an attendant; respecting their confidentiality, and not being lustful.
To be modest and prudent towards other physicians, not to belittle and criticise one's colleagues.
Now I want to separate efficacy from ethics, because every failed treatment we have for cancer, is not unethical. As long as the doctors are forth coming into the patient chances of surviving. Failed treatments are part of medicine.

Hojd your point of view is completely ethnocentric. Have you thought for a second what a does a Chinese layman thinks about their medical system? Because that is the question that matter, it doesn't matter if they are been sold placebos, or stuff that actually works, which btw some of it do work as you pointed out with acupuncture and pressure points.

Also I want to address that if the tears of dogs cured cancer, I would have zero problem with mankind basically harvesting dog for their tears. A human life > than an animal life, it is unethical and immoral to let a human been died because u don't want to kill an animal that holds the cure for it. The same way it is unethical to let a human been suffer a disease if an animal part can cure it.
 

hodj

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A shaman offering his services to someone is not unethical as long as the shaman believes he is right.
No. A person deluding themselves into thinking they are helping people, when they are actually hurting them, is not remotely moral, ethical, just or right.

By your logic, Benny Hinn is a perfectly ethical, moral person.

This is fucking batshit crazy logic completely devoid of reality.



Hojd your point of view is completely ethnocentric.
I've already stated that this is functionally irrelevant. I'm not doing ethnographic research on Chinese traditional medicine, I have no responsibility to accept those practices just because "cultural relativism".

You misunderstand what ethnocentric versus cultural relativism means in research paradigms. I'm not conducting research here.

Have you thought for a second what a does a Chinese layman thinks about their medical system? Because that is the question that matter
No, its not. What matters is "Are his claims tested, quantified, and valid?"

By your logic, the parents giving their children bleach enemas aren't engaging in unethical behavior because "They think it works, so its okay".

That is fucking retarded.

The Parents Who Give Their Children Bleach Enemas to 'Cure' Them of Autism | VICE | United States

Parents Trying to Reverse Kids??T Autism By ??~Flushing Out??T Vaccines With Bogus ??~Miracle??T Bleach Enemas | Alternet

Parents using bleach enemas to autism - laopinion.com

Are the parents giving their children bleach enemas engaging in ethical behavior because "What matters is that they believe it works and that's what matters?"

Yes or no?

This line of reasoning is what I call"Having a mind so open your brain has fallen out."

Now I want to separate efficacy from ethics
Of course you do, because you want to debate this issue dishonestly.
 

iannis

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I don't think even Benny Hinn believes his own bullshit.

I used to watch that shit with my brother before I took him to school sometimes. We'd just sit there for 5-10 minutes while I made him some breakfast.

I think I might have broken him on accident. He probably equates Faith Healing with scrambled eggs and oatmeal for life.
 

Lendarios

Trump's Staff
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The etchnocentric point is 100% revelant. You just woke up one day, read a WESTERN standard about medicine and bio genetics, and decided to cast a wide net over the ENTIRE planet based on a WESTERN set of morals and standards. Even having two wives is not unethical nor inmoral, as it is culturally relative.

"Are his claims tested, quantified, and valid?"
I'm so glad now that religion is ALSO unethical under your qualifications.
So now Chinese medicine is unethical under your point of view, what about religion???, Because there is not a single tested, quantified and valid claim on religion.
 

Big Phoenix

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TCM wouldnt be unethical/unmoral if it this 1000BC. The fact we know for a fact its bullshit and does zero to improve health is what makes it immoral.
 

Lendarios

Trump's Staff
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BTW not all human is ethical, only a few one of our behaviors can be labeled as ethical.
 

khalid

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Basic fucking ethics is not to harm or scam people with bullshit. TCM is overall a scam, is harmful and is bullshit. This is just scientific fact.
 

hodj

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Are you going to address the points actually made, or just keep harping on that terrible strawman argument that "You're not allowed to make judgement calls in Anthropology"?

Rigorous rational inquiry isn't "Western".

Its "Human"

And I'm not conducting research here. So either address the actual points being made, or admit you think that peddling snake oil is ethical so long as the person peddling it "believes" in what they're selling.

Because its not. Dr Oz peddling whacko cures on television, whether he truly believes that they are valid or not, is unethical.

Vani Hari posting tripe on facebook about "evil chemicals and toxins" in our foods, while simultaneously hocking products with those self same products in them...not ethical.

Parents who truly believe that giving their children enemas filled with bleach, regardless of how much they truly believe these products to be beneficial to their children, are not engaging in ethical behavior.

And priests diddling kids, handling snakes, and pretending to make the crippled walk again while demanding 18 million dollars by the weekend...not ethical.

Religious beliefs are religious beliefs. Acting on them in ways that are harmful to others, like beating your kids for not believing in Jesus enough, or telling them they're going to go to hell for not following their parents orders enough, is not ethical.

 

hodj

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Alternative therapies: what??Ts the harm? - Cancer Research UK - Science blog

We often see stories in the media about cancer patients who have chosen alternative treatments, either alongside or instead of conventional treatment.

Every cancer patient has the right to decide what, if any, line of treatment they wish to pursue.

But we believe it's vital that people make fully informed decisions based on genuine evidence about the risks and benefits of any therapy - whether alternative, complementary or conventional - in discussion with their doctor.

To be clear, 'alternative' usually implies a treatment is used instead of conventional medicine, while 'complementary' therapies are used alongside regular medical treatments.

Unfortunately, media and online coverage of alternative therapies often doesn't tell the whole story or include professional medical advice, and can be very misleading.

"Natural is better"

One of the big selling points advocates of alternative therapies use is to claim that conventional treatments are 'toxic' while their favoured treatment is 'natural', implying that natural is somehow better.

This is a fallacy that we've previously explored in detail in our post about that infamous herb, cannabis.

Many treatments for cancer and other diseases were originally derived from naturally-occurring substances. The chemotherapy drug Taxol, created from a compound found in yew leaves, is a prime example.

Conversely, some of the most poisonous substances in the world - ricin, cyanide, arsenic, hemlock, snake venoms and mercury to name but a few - are all entirely natural.

Furthermore, alternative 'natural' therapies are not guaranteed to be safe. Examples include a serious risk of cyanide poisoning from laetrile, permanent scarring or disfigurement from cancer salves, and bowel damage, blood salt imbalances or even life-threatening septicaemia caused by coffee enemas.

"But it works. I read it in the news!"

Stories in the news about alternative therapies are usually framed in the words of a patient talking about their own cancer journey. But this is neither scientific proof nor any kind of guarantee that a treatment is effective or safe.

News reports may provide incorrect or confusing medical information, such as misreporting the type and stage of disease or the true chances of survival, and failing to point out any conventional treatments that were used alongside or before seeking alternative therapy.

In some cases this may be the result of accidental omissions or errors, especially if a reporter is only relying on the patient themselves as the source of their story.

Cancer is a complex disease, and without access to detailed medical records - which are confidential - it is impossible to paint a fully accurate picture of an individual's cancer journey and whether alternative therapies played any role in their recovery.

More worryingly, there are some cases where evidence points towards a murkier interpretation of 'truth' and fact.

For example, Australian blogger Belle Gibson built a large media profile and business around the story of having apparently 'healed herself' of a brain tumour through diet and lifestyle changes, but has now admitted that she never actually had cancer at all.

People pushing alternative therapies frequently wheel out stories from 'survivors' who are apparently alive due to their treatments, yet without providing solid evidence to prove it is true. This raises false hope and unrealistic expectations that there is a hidden miracle cure that can be unlocked for the right price, or by eating exactly the right foods.

As a result, patients and their loved ones may feel guilty or angry for not trying everything that they possibly could have done, despite there being no evidence that such treatments would have helped.

Stories of people 'healing themselves' through diet or other therapies make good headlines. However, if the same person later dies from their cancer it often goes unreported, leaving readers with the misconception that the alternative treatment was a success.

Understandably, there may be huge reluctance among family members to admit that alternative therapy failed, especially if it came at a high cost or reduced quality of life. This problem goes back more than a century, as detailed in a paper published in the British Medical Journal from 1911.

It reveals how an alternative "cancer curer" continued to reassure a husband that his wife was recovering after she had actually died, even going so far as to continue applying dressings to the poor woman's body. Her husband and friends were "ashamed of having been duped and they kept quiet," while the quack went unpunished.

Where's the evidence?

"Do you know what they call alternative medicine that's been proved to work? Medicine" Tim Minchin, Storm

When a doctor recommends a course of treatment their decision is based on the best available information about the chances of saving or prolonging a patient's life, along with any risks and benefits.

Sadly we know that in too many cases even the best treatments can fail, which is why we're continually researching more effective ways to diagnose and treat cancer. Even so, the treatments we have today - including surgery, radiotherapy and chemotherapy - have helped to double cancer survival rates since the 1970s.

We understand that people want to hang on to any glimmer of hope that they or their loved one can be cured, particularly when facing a terminal cancer diagnosis. But despite what alternative therapists may claim, they do not have evidence to support the effectiveness of the treatments they offer. Yet they do normally stand to make money - many thousands of pounds in some cases - from selling ineffective treatments and advice.

Of course, pharmaceutical companies stand to make money from cancer treatments too and we've written about this at length. But they must provide evidence of the effectiveness, safety and side effects of their treatments through lab research and clinical trials. This information is assessed by doctors and healthcare providers when deciding whether a treatment should be made available for patients and paid for by the health service or insurance.

We have extensive information outlining the scientific evidence - or lack of it - for a wide range of alternative and complementary treatments on our website.

If there was good evidence that alternative treatments work, then they should stand up alongside conventional treatments.

But the truth is that they don't.

In addition, the potential costs to patients of placing their hopes in alternative treatments go beyond financial ones.

The hidden costs

One of the biggest risks of seeking alternative therapy is postponing or declining evidence-based conventional treatment, which might otherwise prolong or even save a patient's life.

Perhaps the most famous example is Steve Jobs, the former head of Apple. He was widely reported to have pancreatic cancer, but in fact he had a very different type of cancer called a neuroendocrine tumour which started in his pancreas. After diagnosis he refused medical advice to have surgery and chemotherapy, opting for alternative therapies such as acupuncture, juicing and other treatments he found on the internet.

By the time Steve finally agreed to surgery, his cancer had spread and was untreatable. There is no way of knowing if delaying conventional treatment made a difference to his ultimate outcome, but it's a decision he reportedly regretted.

Then there is the issue of pursuing unproven alternative treatments overseas. Travelling abroad can be risky if a patient is unwell, even leading to emergency hospital admissions if anything goes wrong or their health deteriorates unexpectedly. Because arranging appropriate insurance can be difficult, sorting out any problems that occur while abroad can be extremely costly and stressful.

Another risk is that patients choosing to use alternative therapies may miss out on opportunities for palliative care, such as effective pain relief or reducing the symptoms of advanced cancer with radiotherapy or drugs. Although they cannot provide a cure, palliative therapies can make a big difference to quality of life in the end stages of cancer.

Whether you love or loathe the concept of the 'bucket list', pursuing unproven alternative treatments - particularly abroad or involving arduous and restrictive regimes - robs people of valuable time that they could be spending with family and friends.

Making informed choices

We're continually looking at the evidence behind all kinds of cancer treatments, whether conventional, alternative or complementary, providing extensive information about them on our website. And we are working as hard as we can to develop more effective, kinder treatments for all types of cancer, bringing more tomorrows for patients and their families.

We would like to encourage everyone to ask for the evidence behind claims made for 'miracle cures' and consider whether it is scientifically robust and convincing.

To help, we have a web page about finding and judging reliable information on the internet. This piece in The Conversation about scientific evidence is helpful, as is their collection of articles about understanding research.

Finally, if you or someone you know has questions about cancer and treatment, please give our Cancer Information nurses a call - they're on freephone 0808 800 4040, 9am-5pm Monday to Friday, or you can send them an email.

The Atheist Daughter of a Notable Christian Apologist Shares Her Story

I have two sisters, three and seven years younger than myself, and we were all homeschooled in a highly strict, regulated environment. Our A Beka schoolbooks taught the danger of evolution. Our friends were "good influences" on us, fellow homeschoolers whose mothers thought much alike.Obedience was paramount - if we did not respond immediately to being called, we were spanked ten to fifteen times with a strip of leather cut from the stuff they used to make shoe soles. Bad attitudes, lying, or slow obedience usually warranted the same - the slogan was "All the way, right away, and with a happy spirit." We were extremely well-behaved children, and my dad would sometimes show us off to people he met in public by issuing commands that we automatically rushed to obey.The training was not just external; God commanded that our feelings and thoughts be pure, and this resulted in high self-discipline.
This is unethical behavior caused by irrational religious beliefs. By every definition using your faith as a justification for beating the shit out of your kids for the slightest disagreement is, in fact, unethical. I'm happy to say it.
 

Cad

scientia potentia est
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Basic fucking ethics is not to harm or scam people with bullshit. TCM is overall a scam, is harmful and is bullshit. This is just scientific fact.
+1

The thing that makes TCM unethical is that it doesn't help. It's proven not to help. It's no better than the power of prayer.
 

Lendarios

Trump's Staff
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No no. what u are implying is that the whole realm of religion is unethical, as religion can not provide and i quote "Are his claims tested, quantified, and valid?". That is the standard that you hodj have set to determine a behavior ethical or not. So again are all religions unethical under your Point of view? Btw i already stated my position, now im just taking yours to its logical absurdity.

Ok lets say that under your theory that only behavior that causes damages is unethical. So for example, when in Christianity you have to take the Sacramental bread, is ethical, because while it is certainly NOT the body of jesus, it acts as a placebo, no harm, no foul, Am i correct?
 

hodj

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I'm not implying anything. That's just another strawman.

So again, for the third time, are parents who are giving their children bleach enemas because they truly believe that it will cure them of autism engaging in ethical behavior because they "believe it is working" and that's all that matters.

Yes or no?

So for example, when in Christianity you have to take the Sacramental bread, is ethical, because while it is certainly NOT the body of jesus, it acts as a placebo, no harm, no foul, Am i correct?
Transubstantiation (in Latin, transsubstantiatio, in Greek ??????????? metousiosis) is the change whereby, according to the teaching of the Catholic Church, the bread and the wine used in the sacrament of the Eucharist become, not merely as by a sign or a figure, but also in actual reality the body and blood of Christ.
Transubstantiation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Cad

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I would say it's unethical for people to encourage others to pray instead of going to the doctor. If they say pray in addition to going to the doctor, thats fine.
 

Quaid

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It's rare that I see someone get owned this hard and not even realize it's happening to them.

Bravo, lendarios. My lulz meter is full.
 

Lendarios

Trump's Staff
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you are saying that it is actually , by any physical means, like if we test the wine, it will have blood, or the bread is it actually human skin. I guess Jesus bleed blood.

Giving your kid a bleach enema is bad parenting, not unethical parenting. I am unaware of the book of ethical parenting. Are you familiar with theethicalstandard of parenting?
Please link me the the western book of ethical parenting, so we can compare notes, maybe we can see if the practice of choosing a spouse for your child is ethical or not....
 

khalid

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I gotta hand it to you Lendarios. For page after page, Cad and Hodj argued back and forth and no one could get them to stop.

Then you brought up TCM, such a horrible example of ethical medical practices that you managed to get them both to agree that it is clearly unethical. Good show, though I am fairly sure that wasn't your intention.
 

Cad

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I only argue with Hodj when he is wrong, which admittedly is often but not always.
smile.png
 

hodj

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you are saying that it is actually , by any physical means, like if we test the wine, it will have blood, or the bread is it actually human skin. I guess Jesus bleed blood.

Giving your kid a bleach enema is bad parenting, not unethical parenting. I am unaware of the book of ethical parenting. Are you familiar with theethicalstandard of parenting?
Please link me the the western book of ethical parenting, so we can compare notes, maybe we can see if the practice of choosing a spouse for your child is ethical or not....
Putting bleach up your child's ass is unethical as fuck behavior dude. Its child abuse. Child abuse is unethical behavior. Do you know what the word ethics even means?

I relly dont care what people believe, i care what they know. Knowledge is a subset of belief that is both justified and true.