Science Ethics and Racism in Drug Enforcement Thread

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iannis

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It's just how they make them. They have to do them in batches and then fetch out what look to be the healthiest looking ones for implantation. I don't care for that, but that's just how it works and I don't have to. If you think about it, it really is an uncomfortable thing. Well maybe not for you. Maybe you just don't give a fuck.That's fair, and I'm not trying to insult you with it. But I do have a problem with claiming the success in the name of science, and then foisting the failures (which are far greater in number) off on "nature".

There is an argument to be made for utilizing the dross in an effort to improve the entire process. I'm not dumb, and I'm not immune to it. I also remember back in the 90's when there was a national campaign to buy up female eggs wholesale. Someone was planning to need an awful lot of dross.
 

hodj

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So If I may clarify your point, the whole practice of traditional Chinese medicine is unethical.

If so, can you point out, what standards are you using to judge them unethical?
Standards of empathy and the broad scientific consensus, particularly in the realms of bioethics.

There are some practical applications of derivatives of traditional medicines, but the act of driving endangered species to the point of extinction, for instance, to provide non working "cures" for ailments that are easily cured with modern medical techniques ain't one of them.
 

Cad

scientia potentia est
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It's just how they make them. They have to do them in batches and then fetch out what look to be the healthiest looking ones for implantation. I don't care for that, but that's just how it works and I don't have to. If you think about it, it really is an uncomfortable thing. Well maybe not for you. Maybe you just don't give a fuck.That's fair. But I do have a problem with claiming the success in the name of science, and then foisting the failures (which are far greater in number) off on "nature".

There is an argument to be made for utilizing the dross in an effort to improve the entire process. I'm not dumb, and I'm not immune to it. I also remember back in the 90's when there was a national campaign to buy up female eggs wholesale. Someone was planning to need an awful lot of dross.
These aren't even just "unused" ones.. they're literally ones that aren't able to be used. They can't be implanted because they will die. These aren't discarded humans, these CANNOT be humans.

But yea, basically I don't give a fuck about unimplanted embryos. Thats nature man. Some work some don't. I don't cry for my theoretical progeny that I shot onto my wife's back last night either. I care about my actual walking-around progeny.
 

iannis

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That's why ethics are fun. I don't have a huge issue with your stance. I don't think you're wrong. I just don't entirely agree. But I don't cry over spilled seed either. These lines are mainly personal.

But then on the other hand... kill all Faulty Armors. By the hands of their own superhumans.

I ain't worried. Even a Chinaman++ is no match for Seal Team 2.
 

Lendarios

Trump's Staff
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Standards of empathy and the broad scientific consensus, particularly in the realms of bioethics.

There are some practical applications of derivatives of traditional medicines, but the act of driving endangered species to the point of extinction, for instance, to provide non working "cures" for ailments that are easily cured with modern medical techniques ain't one of them.
Don't change the goal posts Tanoomba, I'm not asking about bio ethics, nor genetics. Nor am I asking if there are practical applications to Chinese Medicine, the assumption is that there are practical applications.

What am I asking is if you consider the practice of Chinese traditional medicine, (which entails cat's nails and toad's tongue), an ethical practice. And if you dont consider them can u link or say what organization deems those practices unethicals?

I wanted to point out that you have a very ethnocentric view of ethics. Which is something I believe goes against the tenets of anthropology.
 

hodj

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I didn't change the goal posts. You asked
If so, can you point out, what standards are you using to judge them unethical?
And I answered that question directly.

Gonna spoil the rest of this since its so long

Here's a decent article, reprinted on an acupuncture website, but written by a ethicist on the subject of the invalid scientific basis for Chinese medicine, with some fair rebuttals to the claims.

Probably a good general overview of why the field is unethical, with some fair responses from someone who disagrees

Scientific Criticism of Traditional Oriental Medicine: Reflections Following Conversations With My Twin Brother

Note that
Dr. Fratkin's article first appeared in the Winter 2000 issue (Vol. 2, No. 1) of the California Journal of Oriental Medicine.
What it boils down to is that Chinese traditional therapies aren't medicine at all. They're a religious belief system. Its faith healing. Is it ethical for faith healers to peddle their art? To prey on the weak, take their donation dollary doos and then fail to provide them with an effective treatment for their ailment? Absolutely not. It is fraud, and fraud is unethical behavior by definition.

Chinese traditional medicines are the Eastern version of Homeopathy, which is pseudo science and quackery.

Here's another good series of discussions on the ethics of naturopathic style "medicines".

Note that there's 5 parts to that series.

Science, Reason, Ethics, and Modern Medicine Part 1: Tu Quoque and History Science-Based Medicine

Here's an academic work examining traditional chinese herbal remedies for irritable bowel syndrome
Chinese herbal formulations individually tailored to the patient proved no more effective than standard CHM treatment. On follow-up 14 weeks after completion of treatment, only the individualized CHM treatment group maintained improvement.
and while they did help relieve symptoms somewhat for some patients (placebo effect) the reality is that
To date, no strong scientific evidence available supports the use of Chinese herbal agents in IBS.8 However, CHM has been used for centuries in the treatment of functional bowel disorders and is routinely used for this purpose in China. Several Chinese studies have suggested the potential effectiveness of CHM for treatment of IBS, although these have all lacked rigor in clinical trial protocol9- 13 and have had poor randomization techniques and lack of blinding.8
JAMA Network | JAMA | Treatment of Irritable Bowel Syndrome With Chinese Herbal Medicine: ?*A Randomized Controlled Trial


The reality is that "Traditional Chinese medicine" probably works no better than a placebo in the vast majority of cases. There might be some functional compounds to be derived from these herbal remedies, that might be effective in large enough doses, but that wouldn't be traditional chinese medicine anymore. That would be Western medicine doing what its been doing for a long ass time, which is taking these claims, testing them, throwing out the vast majority of them as hogwash, and validating the few lucky strikes these traditional voodoo witch craft cures have run across.

And the World Health Organization has been gradually developing a strategy to deal ethically with Traditional Medicine practices around the globe, in answer to your question of "who determines the ethics of it"

WHO | WHO traditional medicine strategy

Really, all this "Chinese traditional medicine" bollocks can just be wrapped up under the rubrick of "Alternative therapies" which are pretty much across the board quackery and fraud. Without some process to determine what works and what doesn't, alternative therapies are by definition unethical to peddle.

The ethics of alternative medicine therapies. - PubMed - NCBI

All you have to do to resolve these question is ask yourself this question

Is there a regulatory process that oversees the practice and ensures that the "cures" that are peddled are actually "curing" people of the conditions they claim to the majority of the time without harming the patient in some way?
IF the answer to that question is "No", then guess what? Its quackery and unethical to peddle it.

The fact that the FDA lets untested supplements be sold, these fish oil pellets and other nonsense, is as unethical as just about anything I can think of. The Vani Haris and Dr Ozs and Long Duck Dong's of the planet peddling rhino horn supplements and detox programs and all that shit are, by definition, unethical snake oil peddling fraudulent con artists of the absolute utmost higher order.

I wanted to point out that you have a very ethnocentric view of ethics. Which is something I believe goes against the tenets of anthropology.
When it comes to people's health, and the complete lack of accountability in traditional medical therapies, you better be damn sure I'm demanding the scientific process be followed. Nothing ethnocentric about it. The scientific process is not a "Western" owned thing. All humans have been engaging in systematic rational inquiry since the first ancestor shaped the first stone tool. Westerners don't own the scientific process, and it has been shaped by cultures all across the world, from the Chinese to the Hindis, to the Arabs, to the Europeans.

Nothing "ethnocentric" about it.

Plus I'm not an ethnographer, and we're not doing ethnography, so I have no responsibility to have a mind so open on this issue that my brain falls out. I'm not conducting a scientific inquiry into the validity of Eastern medicine, if I were then your line of thinking here might be a valid complaint, but if I were engaging in that activity, there would be a proper scientific process applied, including double blind peer review controlled studies, and I would employ cultural relativism in that regards would be warranted.

You misunderstand what "ethnocentrism" versus "cultural relativism" implies in Anthropology.

I have no responsibility to, for instance, accept Bachi Bazi practices as morally good. I can make a judgement call that selling little boys as sex slaves is fuckingwrong. I'm not in Afghanistan conducting ethnographic research on the subject, I have no responsibility to have an open mind about the practice because of that fact.
 

Big Phoenix

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Are you the kid who always raises his hand in classes and has something to say after the Teacher says something?
 

hodj

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No, I've been shawed plenty of times.

We usually turned it into a big joke, comparing the shaw to Sobibor and shit.
 

hodj

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No, I've been on the internet for 20 years but I have no clue what f5 means.
 

hodj

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Funny you should mention that, back when I first started going to college around 20/21 that was what I was going to major in.

Realized I hated it. Dropped out.
 

Cad

scientia potentia est
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That's why ethics are fun. I don't have a huge issue with your stance. I don't think you're wrong. I just don't entirely agree. But I don't cry over spilled seed either. These lines are mainly personal.

But then on the other hand... kill all Faulty Armors. By the hands of their own superhumans.

I ain't worried. Even a Chinaman++ is no match for Seal Team 2.
I've no love for Faulty Armors in general, just mine.

And I realize we may not totally agree on the ethics of a situation - and thats ok! Your answer isn't wrong. These are matters of opinion. I tend to think the expeditious advancement of genetic engineering will be the biggest game-changer our society has ever seen, so if a few goddamn embryos get waffled in the process of testing I don't care. Actual human testing is a different deal but I'm not some religious kook that gets caught up in the moment of conception = human.

Elect Cad dictator for life and my first step would be 10x the funding for NASA, 50B a year in fusion research until we have that and a 100% increase in taxes on all fossil fuels with the proceeds going to building GenIII+ fission reactors until fusion is viable. I'd also immediately cut the funding to most of the companies currently suckling off the tit of the defense industry and force some actual competitive designs on both cost and features to come up. All of the defense savings goes to hiring all the genetic engineers from around the world, clustering them in a gigantic lab in Kansas, funding that with saved defense money, and changing the world within 10-20 years. Combine this with my boarding school education plan and this country would be back on track within a generation. Come on motherfuckers, wheres your votes?
smile.png
 

Soriak_sl

shitlord
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So If I may clarify your point, the whole practice of traditional Chinese medicine is unethical.

If so, can you point out, what standards are you using to judge them unethical?
That one's pretty simple: because it's fraudulent. If you claim that your product or service cures a disease when it is, in fact, known that it does not and when doing so gets people to abandon treatments that have, in fact, been shown to treat that disease effectively... then you're responsible if that person ends up dead. Doing it so you can make a quick buck at their expense is morally reprehensible.

Now I do believe that some people actually buy the crap they're selling, and I don't think they act unethically. But it's hard to know which fraudster drank their own kool aid. (For what it's worth, this isn't just an issue in the medical domain. I also find the "personal finance gurus" who push exploitative products for a kickback morally reprehensible.)

If you want another example of clearly unethical "cures" -- look at tobacco smoke treatment centers in Indonesia. They basically fill you up with tobacco and promise that this treats cancer, and families spend their entire savings to have their children treated there. Surprisingly, not with much success. (There's also no regulation on smoking, so tobacco companies advertise primarily to children. That's no more ethical, and it's a shame they can't be sued in US courts over it.)