Star Citizen Online - The search for more money

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Variise

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I think it might be because people are hungry for a good space sim and our meager selection is between this and Elite. Elite, in my opinion, does its stuff well, but it adds stuff slowly and step by step. SC promised the moon, with everything from stealth bombers to EVA spacewalk repairs, and people (like me) are getting annoyed at the sloooooow pace they are keeping. This leads to frustration and arguments it seems..... and then we ofc have the one who must not be named who has created a huge drama since summer and is quite fun to watch in action (as entertainment, god knows you cant take much he says seriously... like him going to sue everyone and everything). Its good popcorn material while we wait thou!

Edit: Oh and the feature creep + promised delivery (originaly) in 2014. That stings, but I understand why it must be so if they are going to implement even half the BS they added as funding goals.
Look a the upside. Chris finally admitted during the Live Stream that his previous ways of rolling out content was a mistake and from 2.0 onward we will get whatever is complete in chunks for the 2.1, 2.2 etc. patches right up to release instead of forcing a hard feature set that must ship with a "module" or a "patch". That's what kept things pushed back and why we still don't have the original feature set from Star Marine. Thank god no more of that shit. That part of the project eventually got old for me as well and I'm glad to see it go. Lesson for other developers on what not to do if your project is public. Creative development is hard...
 

Awanka

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Everyone of those movies made money. Some of them were in the 20's of millions in the black. A big box office isn't how a lot of Hollywood productions make money day to day, bud. Now hurry over to SA and ask the other smarties what you need to say back to me. Hurry!
You do know movies cost money to make? That the box office isn't just all profit? I'm not even getting to the part where movies generally have to make twice their production budget to break even. You seem to believe movies are developed for free. This is appalling.
 

Blackwulf

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You do know movies cost money to make? That the box office isn't just all profit? I'm not even getting to the part where movies generally have to make twice their production budget to break even. You seem to believe movies are developed for free. This is appalling.
You never studied economics did ya, bud? When I said "in the black" that means after expenses they had profit. As opposed to "in the red" which would mean after expenses they lost money. Now you know why they call it Black Friday when you are out buying yourself new long underwear and a crockpot.
 

Palum

what Suineg set it to
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Tall claims for a company that has shipped no products yet and lives off donations.
 

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
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This game is so far removed from it's kickstarter that I think it'll have almost no negative effect on crowdfunding. It'll effect the big whales of the game, but there arn't many of them compared to larger gamer population out there.

Crowdfunding is such a case by case basis, I can't see how it gets effected. Just look at huge success stories like Occulus and Divinity.
The game's funding is just kickstarter 2.0. Like a lot of games that were successfully kickstarted.
 

Blackwulf

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Look a the upside. Chris finally admitted during the Live Stream that his previous ways of rolling out content was a mistake and from 2.0 onward we will get whatever is complete in chunks for the 2.1, 2.2 etc. patches right up to release instead of forcing a hard feature set that must ship with a "module" or a "patch". That's what kept things pushed back and why we still don't have the original feature set from Star Marine. Thank god no more of that shit. That part of the project eventually got old for me as well and I'm glad to see it go. Lesson for other developers on what not to do if your project is public. Creative development is hard...
Yeah, that's a great point. Now that they have the baseline PU alpha, they can just iterate on it, add shit as they get it done.
 

Variise

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Very strongly suggest people watch this 10 For the Producers so they understand not only what will happen next but how. I like INN because they post transcripts so you can just read it. But I'm serious. If you are willing to ever watch one 25-27min episode this is the one to watch.

http://imperialnews.network/2015/11/...rs-episode-13/

EDIT: I should mention this was posted today so it's new information for everyone in how they are proceeding here on out.
 

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
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Look a the upside. Chris finally admitted during the Live Stream that his previous ways of rolling out content was a mistake and from 2.0 onward we will get whatever is complete in chunks for the 2.1, 2.2 etc. patches right up to release instead of forcing a hard feature set that must ship with a "module" or a "patch". That's what kept things pushed back and why we still don't have the original feature set from Star Marine. Thank god no more of that shit. That part of the project eventually got old for me as well and I'm glad to see it go. Lesson for other developers on what not to do if your project is public. Creative development is hard...
Can you explain more about this and what the different is between these two methodologies?
 

Variise

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Can you explain more about this and what the different is between these two methodologies?
Way too complicated and I'm not in the industry. However let me try.

I swear I tried my hardest but my Google Fo failed me and couldn't find the image they held up during one of the 10 For The episodes which showed all of the internal builds and live build and how they interacted. It looked like an insane spider web. Basically list all the builds (I think there was like 15 builds) vertically and horizontally and draw lines from one to the other to as many builds as you can which interacted (not all did). It looked like a tangled mess of crossed wires and from a project management point of view I have no clue how they kept that shit up for this long. Most of those builds are now one build via the Great Code Merge of 2015 which set them back a couple of months and effectively killed Star Marine. Yeah shit happens...

So keeping all that in mind...

The previous ways of development was actually quite similar to how traditional development milestones work for other studios. X feature sets/content must be completed by Y timeframe. The difference being there is a live side that must be supported which complicates things to a whole other level I don't think anyone has really done or at least not many. It basically requires MMO level project management and back end support which explains why they hired some of the Producers from Blizzard. But I digress. So what they would do is set a number of hard feature sets. Lets say: All animations for FPS including EVA, a half dozen weapons, several grenades, a number of gadgets, FPS healing mechanic and on and on and on the list went. So one "Module" lets call it Star Marine would be nearly a dozen different major game features. While a major patch might be the entire Code Merge for 2015.

So the above would have half the features complete and the rest would slip or one or two major features would slip and the rest is history just like Star Marine.

The first time we see them stepping away from this is the Social Module. While it had some major features like the ability to meet other players for the first time on the very first landing zone a lot of other features were left out so they could ship it or the iteration wasn't feature complete. For example we know that it's getting revamped already to take advantage of the module asset sets they created from making ArcCorp in the first place and other landing zones. Nyx being the very first complete landing zone that is created entirely from modular asset sets.

So one is a set of hard coded features that has likely gone through a number of iterations and polish the other is release what you got now which might be the very first iteration. This does mean something people don't realize. Features we get as a first iteration is more likely to change and will no longer exist the way we first got it. Those changes might be more severe compared to a "Module" that has gone through a lot more of such changes internally. It also means the feedback from players may be equally severe where you get a first pass and don't realize they are already on the next pass internally but in such a partial state that it makes no sense to release it.

An example of this would be the paint system. They eventually want us to paint ships. So a part of that already works and they could just release it as is. However that system requires persistence and UI assets/time that currently doesn't exist. A first iteration of faking persistence will arrive in 2.1 or 2.2 and full persistence is easily 9-12 months out and rightly so. UI's are in late stages of iteration and closer to what we will see at release but until the standardized feature of UI is up and running for ships they can't make the other stuff even though the tech is complete and they could do it if they wanted to.

Now why do I say this? Why not just let it happen now? Persistence is insanely expensive as that dev who commented on Star Citizen posted a few weeks back and adds an insane amount of complexity. Why would you implement such a system early on when development on so many features like the item port system is incomplete. Until that system is up and running and generating unique IDs for everything in the game from paint to unique grenades and clips for your guns to modules in your ship it makes no sense to push out a feature even if it technically works right now. UI priority is with SQ42 ships/assets so they might be farther ahead but we might only see the tail end of the dragon because SQ42 is kept sealed up tight until mid/late next year.

So that paint system that might have ended up as a "hard feature set" in a later Module or major Patch will simply get rolled out when the item port system and UI is rolled out that supports it and likely only a few major patches later as its own thing even though the tech was working 6-12 months earlier.

This is basically iterative feature/content development at it's core that you only ever experience with released Online games. It's definitely not SOP for the industry as far as I know. Maybe someone with more knowledge can correct me.

Will they stick to it? I don't think they have a choice at this point. It's make it or break it time. It's definitely to their advantage to push out features/content as it's ready but the complaints won't die. If you watched the 10 for the Producers video I linked above you will understand why but basically until you complete an entire feature set even through iteration you can't measure how much effort/time/money it takes to do it. Lets not forget Chris was hoping to leave 2015 with at least 3 full star systems up and running. We don't even have one. A lot of tools and assets are still being built. I can only point to Shubin. They spent over a year making it and now they can spit out space stations every few hours if they want with some variation due to the modular nature of the asset sets they created.

Sorry for going on for so long.
 

Tuco

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Makes sense, thanks. It sounds like the two methodologies are similar, but the first one was poorly done because their software system didn't properly handle modularization to create unique builds, but now their system does. Like Blackwulf says they have a PU platform they can build against. Not sure if S42 is going to be able to build onto that or if it's a separate system.
 

Sylas

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I want to correct something here on the "tedium".
Look man I don't really care that much about it to sift through your walls of text where you go off on a tangent and never actually say anything re: anything I said or anything you said you would address. the wall of text I excised was you going on and on about quest design.

I just wanted to point out that you are arguing against yourself here. They spent a lot of money time and resources creating extremely tedious realism here (part of my statement that they mismanaged and misspent a ton of money which is why the game isn't done yet. nevermind all the reiteration and rework done on all these systems because the core game wasn't even built yet and they have to redo all this shit) and to argue against my statement, you are saying they know it's tedious so you can just skip all of that and press a button on your arm.
 

Variise

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Makes sense, thanks. It sounds like the two methodologies are similar, but the first one was poorly done because their software system didn't properly handle modularization to create unique builds, but now their system does. Like Blackwulf says they have a PU platform they can build against. Not sure if S42 is going to be able to build onto that or if it's a separate system.
It's not the same build. They no longer have like 15 builds but they still have about half that. I'm not including the PTU which is a temp build. But you would have a QA build which changes the most for obvious reasons, a SQ42 build, PU build, character build, engine build and probably a couple other ones I can't think of right now. On occasion they would merge them and split them all up again so each studio can quietly work on their respective pieces of the pie until again they merge them. Not everything gets merged all the time. That's uncommon. It's more common to merge QA and a specific build for obvious reasons but when ships or characters or animations, sounds or core engine features like the zone system is done they merge them. Then spend a few days to a week fixing bugs and soldier on. Some bugs are persistent and have been around since AC 1.0 but it's not a major concern so they leave it because that part of the engine will change in the coming weeks/months and it's not a blocker for any build so it gets left to the very end.

That character shaking that still happens? Good example of that. It's annoying but it's still around. I doubt they will touch it until the engine changes are done which won't happen until much later into 2016. That "Use" button is a core part of CryEngine and they have to rip the whole goddamn thing apart to get rid of it which is exactly what the German studio is doing right now. Since they are doing that they are also re-writing core parts of the engine through iteration. So that build will get changed all the time right up until and past release.

You know what my concern is? They can't really have two builds of SC at launch. One SQ42 and one PU. Everything is shared. People don't get this. From Tier 0 character assets/features and animations to... literally everything. I still see people talking here like it's two games. Nope. They just ripped out Co-Op (too complex to implement) and will allow people to exit SQ42 right after character creation and enter the PU. It will work exactly like how SWTOR: The Fallen Empire works now. It's something they had to back peddle on and while I'm sad to see it go it had to be done.

As for what was causing the issue. That's procedure. It has nothing to do with the Engine or the Tools they used. As I said Chris would set a hard feature set of like a dozen different things and if one thing slips the whole patch or Module slips. That's a choice. I'll tell you one thing tho. Had they done it the new way it would have pissed off people just the same except the arguments would be entirely different. Look at the waste of money... they created a feature and they are revamping it for the 7th time.. my god what are we paying them for? Yup they re-did the skeleton system for SC 7 times and I think they are on #8 because they ran into yet another issue. Lovely. Meanwhile most people here assume they did it like 2-3 times maybe. Nope.. 7-8. Could you imagine the crying about it considering how critical this feature is? Every time it's re-done they have to re-do animations tied to whatever is changed.
 

Variise

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Look man I don't really care that much about it to sift through your walls of text where you go off on a tangent and never actually say anything re: anything I said or anything you said you would address. the wall of text I excised was you going on and on about quest design.

I just wanted to point out that you are arguing against yourself here. They spent a lot of money time and resources creating extremely tedious realism here (part of my statement that they mismanaged and misspent a ton of money which is why the game isn't done yet. nevermind all the reiteration and rework done on all these systems because the core game wasn't even built yet and they have to redo all this shit) and to argue against my statement, you are saying they know it's tedious so you can just skip all of that and press a button on your arm.
queue facepalm

Yet here you are. It would have taken you less time to read through what I wrote so you would realize I addressed your points.

sigh... yeah
 

Sylas

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no you mistake me, i did read it, and responded. I said they added a lot of tedium. You said, "in regards to the tedium, you can just skip most of it. here's a wall of text about quest design..." to which I replied "well they spent a fuckton of money on adding all that tedium so that's kinda dumb. No wonder they're so behind on releasing this game. Ya know, back to the initial statement that any other dev team would have had this out and working on the first expac by now?" You never actually addressed my points, you posted a bunch of stuff supporting my argument and detracting from your own.
 

Denaut

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Without going through the 18 walls of text bit by bit, Variise describing how they've been going about development shows me they're in way over their head. Whatever it is they get out, it will by the end have cost several times what it should have due to poor scope and project management.
 

Faith

Useless lazy bastard.
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LOL what? Wing Commander and Ultima built Origin. Maybe you are thinking of Privateer or something?
You claimed " since he coded Wing Commander 1 by himself in the late 80s.", now we all know it was Origin who made it not CR on his own. Now from what Ive read the original budget was $250.000 and ended up just north of $1.000.000 (I am trying to find better sources then an old post about computer game budgets, so will have to get back for a source.

Regarding the movies, at least a few of them made more then the estemated budgets, so you are totaly correct that some of the movies made money, my fault (I looked at the Wing Commander movie and that was a freaking disaster budget-wise). It is also clear that the movie company Ascendant Pictures was aquired by another studio after settling with Costner (two years later to be exact, so I dont know if that counts as "failing"), once again, my fault.

(Thank you Blackwulf for point this out, I was fucking sloppy on research for my post. See what I mean with the lots of words, very very light on evidence? Hell I am buying into it myself, I need help!)

My worry is still that noone in the top of the company seems to have any experience with handling multi-million dollar companys, and while I asume and hope they have hired talent (they can afford it!) I have yet to find such a person. On the other hand, my last post just shows just how little I know so lets hope I am wrong yet again
smile.png
 

Faith

Useless lazy bastard.
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And Draegan, fuck if I know why we study this game with this degree of intensity. I think its time to focus on just playing the games I have instead of trying to track down budgets for games made 20+ years ago...jesus. If it comes out, it comes out.
 

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
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If it comes out, it comes out.
That's the best approach for sure. I mean I did back this for over $100 waayy back during the KS and I havent read their newsletter or website in over year. I just read about updates in this thread (thanks Variise) and get a chuckle out of the drama and the extremists on both sides from time to time.
 

Awanka

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Without going through the 18 walls of text bit by bit, Variise describing how they've been going about development shows me they're in way over their head. Whatever it is they get out, it will by the end have cost several times what it should have due to poor scope and project management.
But according to Variise, CIG has insane project management skills. His evidence for this is that they took 1.5 years to build a mining station, but now they can do it in a few hours with their awesome copypasta skills. I kinda stopped reading his posts after that.
 

Mist

REEEEeyore
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They had a bunch of builds because the FPS and the Flight Sim were being worked on separately at the time. Now they're merged into one codebase, which supports local physics and 64bit precision, and they don't need so many different builds. It's not that complicated. There wasn't a way to merge the projects before, because the technology wasn't there to support it at the time, and now it is.

The project was a bit loose at first, but progress has been very fast now that they've got the foundation down and now that they're pulling more development back in-house.

I don't know what you guys think game development is like. If you look at early builds of every major online gaming title out there, they all started off as practically entirely different games.