Star Citizen Online - The search for more money

Denaut_sl said:

Wasn't any hyperbole. Making a AAA modern Freelancer game while building a brand new studio from the ground up is an extremely difficult and expensive, but achievable, goal.

Adding Borderlands or Dark Souls style multiplayer is a significant additional layer of complexity, but again this is an achievable goal.

The second the words "online" or "mmo" enter the picture is the moment every thing you do and every feature you create becomes an order of magnitude more difficult. Their proclamations of what they would deliver in the time frame they would deliver it shrieked of nothing but massive amounts of ignorance about what exactly they were signing up for.

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Yeah it was. You said everything they claimed was unviable. You belied that already.

So anything other than Derek Smart level incredulity? That is literally the same shit he says without the repetitive self promotion.

Knew he was going to say that.

That's exactly how SCO fanboys dismiss the completely valid issues people point out: by saying ("Well Derek Smart raised those points so they must be false!")

Axamander_sl said:

Yeah it was. You said everything they claimed was unviable. You belied that already.

So anything other than Derek Smart level incredulity? That is literally the same shit he says without the surreptitious self promotion.

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Is this the same response you give a physicist when they call bullshit on someone selling a perpetual motion machine? As for Derek Smart, just because he is an ass doesn't mean he is wrong.

If you want any evidence for how out of their mind they are take a look at other relatively recent games that cost ~$100m or more to develop (Destiny, TOR, GTA4-5, The Division, MGSV) and notice they arefarmore limited andfarless complex than SC is promised to be, all the while coming from established studios with established tech and plenty of experience.

Eidal_sl said:

Knew he was going to say that.

That's exactly how SCO fanboys dismiss the completely valid issues people point out: by saying ("Well Derek Smart raised those points so they must be false!")

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That's not all that I said. He basically said that it would be really complex and difficult. Him not being able to figure out how it would be done is not a basis.

As an aside it would be nice to hear something that isn't someone else's regurgitated take particularly when he claims some level of expertise.

Axamander_sl said:

That's not all that I said. He basically said that it would be really complex and difficult. Him not being able to figure out how it would be done is not a basis.

As an aside it would be nice to hear something that isn't someone else's regurgitated take particularly when he claims some level of expertise.

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On this topic you are so far into Dunning-Kruger effect territory that you don't seem to fathom just how little you know about even the basics of developing an MMO. I know plenty of ways itcouldbe done, but that is irrelevant to what CIG is actually doing.

Denaut_sl said:

Is this the same response you give a physicist when they call bullshit on someone selling a perpetual motion machine? As for Derek Smart, just because he is an ass doesn't mean he is wrong.

If you want any evidence for how out of their mind they are take a look at other relatively recent games that cost ~$100m or more to develop (Destiny, TOR, GTA4-5, The Division, MGSV) and notice they arefarmore limited andfarless complex than SC is promised to be, all the while coming from established studios with established tech and plenty of experience.

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A better analogy would be 'is that the same response you give to Wei Hok Soon when he calls bullshit on climate models.'

That backdoor attempt at logic isn't exactly convincing me of any level of expertise. Just because they are a new company doesn't mean they cannot do what they claim to use your own logic. I mean using examples of companies that failed would actually lead to the conclusion but what you said doesn't demonstrate a limiting factor in the least.

I was hoping for something talking about 64 bit matrices, necessary computations, and bandwidth limitations instead I get a poorly formulated non sequitur that dodges anything remotely technical.

Denaut_sl said:

On this topic you are so far into Dunning-Kruger effect territory that you don't seem to fathom just how little you know about even the basics of developing an MMO. I know plenty of ways itcouldbe done, but that is irrelevant to what CIG is actually doing.

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You really going to big time with this weak horseshit? You've demonstrated nothing for all your delusions of grandeur. Megalomania is common in trolls but not overly compelling.

And lets not omit that you just admitted that what they are claiming to be doing is technically possible. Good job at self ownership while trying to prop yourself up.

Axamander_sl said:

A better analogy would be 'is that the same response you give to Wei Hok Soon when he calls bullshit on climate models.'

That backdoor attempt at logic isn't exactly convincing me of any level of expertise. Just because they are a new company doesn't mean they cannot do what they claim to use your own logic. I mean using examples of companies that failed would actually lead to the conclusion but what you said doesn't demonstrate a limiting factor in the least.

I was hoping for something talking about 64 bit matrices, necessary computations, and bandwidth limitations instead I get a poorly formulated non sequitur that dodges anything remotely technical.

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Man you are in deep, it is like talking to a creationist. The fact that you think the difficult part of developing a huge and ambitious online game in a globe spanning company is primarily in the minute technical details and not mostly at the design/production level proves you are ignorant enough to be easily dazzled by smart sounding techno-babble.

Solving technical problems is, at best, half of what you need to do to make a functioning game. And that half must be mostly finishedbeforeyou do the rest. Considering that they are still building their basic tech in pieces (err.. modules) they are less than 50% finished with the process of completing what they have promised, because they still have to make all these pieces work together and then they still have to build the game around it.

Denaut_sl said:

Man you are in deep, it is like talking to a creationist. The fact that you think the difficult part of developing a huge and ambitious online game in a globe spanning company is primarily in the minute technical details and not mostly at the design/production level proves you are ignorant enough to be easily dazzled by smart sounding techno-babble.

Solving technical problems is, at best, half of what you need to do to make a functioning game. And that half must be mostly finishedbeforeyou do the rest. Considering that they are still building their basic tech in pieces (err.. modules) they are less than 50% finished with the process of completing what they have promised, because they still have to make all these pieces work together and then they still have to build the game around it.

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You can always tell when someone feels they are losing an argument. Ad hominems and an attempt to rephrase the discussion into something else.

Let's recall what you said when I first asked you for any basis for your claim:

Denaut_sl said:

Professional judgement. Everything they've said and released is at odds with the reality of anyone that has experienced actual online development.

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Now you've already backtracked off this once but looking back it now I should I have known when your initial response was an appeal to authority on an anonymous online forum. More recently you made a contradictory claim stating that you could conceive of how what they are trying to do is possible when I called you on your 'expertise.' Frankly between your missing the forest for a tree, megalomania, and the elementary level big timing, I put you at about the level of the middle school kids I tutored as an undergrad. They were on that level of physics with poor critical thinking skills. They weren't quite so full of shit though.

So anyway if you want to regurgitate Smart's arguments about it being a new company and the like and pass them off as your own then go ahead. Your conceptual limitations only limit yourself and do not limit reality in any way shape or form.

This is boring and going nowhere to uncovering any truth about the game so I'm done with this conversation. Last word is yours. I'm sure I 'll have more MMO hipsters to deal with. Maybe we can have a discussion on how FFA PVP doesn't sell in NA markets.

Axamander_sl said:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/joe-sothy-aa000027

Joe Sothy worked as a senior finance executive at EA before becoming CIG's CFO.

You going to claim they are going to run out of money or you going to stick with snark too?

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Which project manager does Roberts report too? When the CEO is the one undermining his own project there isn't shit a project manager can do. That would traditionally be the roll a publisher would fill but not only did Roberts get lucky with a Kickstarter, he also gained a bunch of fanatical rabid fans roaming forums trying to Polish the turd for him.

Axamander_sl said:

Now you've already backtracked off this once but looking back it now I should I have known when your initial response was an appeal to authority on an anonymous online forum. More recently you made a contradictory claim stating that you could conceive of how what they are trying to do is possible when I called you on your 'expertise.' Frankly between your missing the forest for a tree, megalomania, and the elementary level big timing, I put you at about the level of the middle school kids I tutored as an undergrad. They were on that level of physics with poor critical thinking skills. They weren't quite so full of shit though.

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Isn't Denaut an actual MMO dev? Most notably for Sony/EQ? Or am I confusing him with someone else. Seems kind of silly to question his expertise if he is who I think he is.

I don't know about MMO but he is a game dev.

Well how the hell am I supposed to know who he is? I asked him to demonstrate said expertise and instead I got sophomoric big timing and poorly articulated regurgitations of Derek Smart's poorer arguments.

What was amusing was when he started contradicting himself in trying to big time me.

Skanda_sl said:

Which project manager does Roberts report too? When the CEO is the one undermining his own project there isn't shit a project manager can do. That would traditionally be the roll a publisher would fill but not only did Roberts get lucky with a Kickstarter, he also gained a bunch of fanatical rabid fans roaming forums trying to Polish the turd for him.

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Begging questions is not an argument. I can play that game too. Does Chris Roberts ignore his CFO? If he pays attention to his CFO what does he need a publisher for?

Fact is after that escapist article, he categorically denied the claims about fiscal irresponsibility stating that he adheres to his financial team's advice and keeps significant cash reserves at all times.

And fans are pretty common in US society. That it ends up being your canned response when someone doesn't buy your arguments is mighty convenient but it seems intellectually lazy to me. You read to me like a good minion for our corporate overlords because without them we could never be responsible. Between that and the aspersions about 'shady behavior' and I cannot help but think of Nietzsche's slave morality. I reject that mode of thinking categorically.

a_skeleton_03_sl said:

Maybe we shouldn't parachute into threads jacking off to our own intelligence.

Derek thinks the sky is blue and so do I but that doesn't mean I believe it because he does. It shows off your bias and wool eyemask when anyone opposite you must be a Derek fanboy. Most of us had never heard of him when we made up our opinion and I don't think anyone takes him seriously.

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You stopped arguing what I was actually arguing regarding your take on the economics of crowdfunding. I don't give a shit about Derek Smart beyond to say that the criticisms laid out to this point indicate a lack of original takes. I argue his arguments at face value too --you guys ignore that to fixate on this-- but pretending like he doesn't have a big gaping conflict of interest is gratuitous at best.

And are you really going to whine about my diction? Want me to talk dumb for you?

I made my rounds in San Diego before heading overseas. Been making online games for ~11 years

Axamander_sl said:

Well how the hell am I supposed to know who he is? I asked him to demonstrate said expertise and instead I got sophomoric big timing and poorly articulated regurgitations of Derek Smart's poorer arguments.

What was amusing was when he started contradicting himself in trying to big time me.

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I haven't backtracked or contradicted a single thing except in your brain. Individual parts of what they want to do are feasible, doing everything they want to do given infinite time and resources is mostly possible (with compromises). Creating a good cohesive game with all of the features they promised at the schedule they gave with the resources they have has already been proven not possible, but doing it in the new schedule isn't either.

I am demonstrating my expertise by stating that they have set unreasonable goals with unreasonable time frames. They have promised to deliver a huge number of interacting features as an MMO on a scale and with a quality no game has ever even come close to delivering for very good reason. I know this because I have worked on many of the features they are promising in different contexts so when they say 2 + 2 = 1 alarm bells start going off.

You can see what you get for similar budgets, and it is no where within the realm of what they are promising to deliver, and since I am not religious I don't believe in miracles.

a_skeleton_03_sl said:

You do not understand how business financing works and what expectations come with that. You are too emotional to sit there, read something, and then go out and learn about it. They are not the first company to raise money via crowdfunding and have a long product cycle so you can see exactly how these things play out and what legal ramifications are involved. They are the biggest though and the most nebulous being a software company that has changed the scale and scope of their game dramatically.

You are foaming at the mouth and can't take any criticism, you actually feel like I should die merely because I know more than you about this subject and have exposed your ignorance.

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And really after this load of horseshit, I find your current whinging about my intelligence to be absolutely delicious.

Denaut_sl said:

Professional judgement. Everything they've said and released is at odds with the reality of anyone that has experienced actual online development.

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and

Denaut_sl said:

On this topic you are so far into Dunning-Kruger effect territory that you don't seem to fathom just how little you know about even the basics of developing an MMO. I know plenty of ways itcouldbe done, but that is irrelevant to what CIG is actually doing.

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are mutually exclusive statements. If you cannot figure it out then it's not my problem.

I get that you want to dissemble into timeframes now but it is what it is. BAsically what youre saying is that you could do it but they cannot. Reads like hubris to me.

Axamander_sl said:

and



are mutually exclusive statements. If you cannot figure it out then it's not my problem.

I get that you want to dissemble into timeframes now but it is what it is. BAsically what youre saying is that you could do it but they cannot. Reads like hubris to me.

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Except they aren't.

Couldbe done includes things like throwing 1k people and a billion dollars at the project, or releasing the game over the course of 2 decades with each well tested piece being layered on top of other well tested pieces. I am in no way stating I am some genius that could totally do make SC happen like they have said it will, because I am not nearly arrogant enough to think I am a better developer than every other developer to have ever lived.

You still seem to think that the limitations areprimarilytechnical (there of course are technical difficulties) when they areprimarilythe production which includes the cascading effects caused by their technical obstacles.