Star Citizen Online - The search for more money

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a_skeleton_03

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Well youre all over the place so I guess you have a point here. You remind me of politicians who make comments that all lead to a particular conclusion --in this case the economic inviability of CSI's business model-- only to disavow said conclusion when asked point blank.
I am not even directly talking about them is the point but about the uncertainty of this specific kind of fundraising. Varisse over there thinks that if they just issue a letter stating "these things have changed, deal with it" here is no accountability to anyone for previous promises.

If you pre sell 300 ships and then spend that money on the coding to make them and the rest of the game but don't deliver then go bankrupt he game is a failure and too bad so sad for everyone. You knew the risk. I would be cool with that.

Now pre sell the same 300, flounder around and have to reinvent your game delaying it significantly. Doesn't matter if it is for good and valid reasons. In order to get some cash flow in you pre sell another 300 though. Now some of the original 300 want their money back. Their money was spent, you pay them with the new pre sell money. Now you need to raise more. This is the very definition of a pyramid scheme the only difference is they didn't intend to do so when starting out.

The people still invested don't care, that's fine but it isn't up to them to say "well I don't care so no harm was done". There is still some shady shit going on. Even if they are 100% open with their books they are doing shady shit. If this was a hardware company with a tangible product or an investment company their heads would be rolling because people would hold their feet to the fire and some regulatory agency might jump in.

Instead we have a bunch of beaten wives in an abusive relationship explaining away the problems because they have too much invested at this point.

Like I said look into other big fund raisers that have failed. There isn't a single other project (if you find one let me know) that has been crowd funded and not released faster than this. All others have failed and refunded or failed and said sorry we can't refund. Like I said look into Zano or Nuviz.
 

Axamander

N00b
108
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I am not even directly talking about them is the point but about the uncertainty of this specific kind of fundraising. Varisse over there thinks that if they just issue a letter stating "these things have changed, deal with it" here is no accountability to anyone for previous promises.

If you pre sell 300 ships and then spend that money on the coding to make them and the rest of the game but don't deliver then go bankrupt he game is a failure and too bad so sad for everyone. You knew the risk. I would be cool with that.

Now pre sell the same 300, flounder around and have to reinvent your game delaying it significantly. Doesn't matter if it is for good and valid reasons. In order to get some cash flow in you pre sell another 300 though. Now some of the original 300 want their money back. Their money was spent, you pay them with the new pre sell money. Now you need to raise more. This is the very definition of a pyramid scheme the only difference is they didn't intend to do so when starting out.

The people still invested don't care, that's fine but it isn't up to them to say "well I don't care so no harm was done". There is still some shady shit going on. Even if they are 100% open with their books they are doing shady shit. If this was a hardware company with a tangible product or an investment company their heads would be rolling because people would hold their feet to the fire and some regulatory agency might jump in.

Instead we have a bunch of beaten wives in an abusive relationship explaining away the problems because they have too much invested at this point.

Like I said look into other big fund raisers that have failed. There isn't a single other project (if you find one let me know) that has been crowd funded and not released faster than this. All others have failed and refunded or failed and said sorry we can't refund. Like I said look into Zano or Nuviz.
A pyramid scheme is when you sell to a certain person who licenses to sell to another tier of people granting residuals who does it again and so on. Thus the pyramid topology.

By your reasoning every game that continues to develop and sell their product post launch is a pyramid scheme. That take is asinine.

What is shady other than your fail of a business model comparison. This reads like just more fearmongering of something new like I've been describing fromt eh beginning..
 

a_skeleton_03

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I mistyped and said pyramid instead of ponzi which should have been evident but I won't go back and edit it so you can have your laugh.

Every other game is not like this because most games don't preselll to 100% fund a game and then have to release multiple more blocks of pre sold "inventory". Digital goods not tangibles.

My startup right now is hardware related. We have to do pre sales in blocks so we aren't stuck with physical inventory we can't move. If someone requests a refund they get their money back and not a future sales money back.
 

Axamander

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So they're 'quietly' rewriting the entire engine like 3.5 years into development and that's a good sign?

Lol
There was nothing quiet about it.

They announced in Fall of 2015 they were integrating the engines for FPS, piloting, planetside, itemization etc into one engine. That winter they announced the procedural planet system and started showing demos of a toon seamlessly going from EVA to pilot in space flying down to a planet and running around.

What he said is they were still completing the itemization portion and optimizing that unity engine on the large scale before they started rolling out features like mining for public testing. HE said he anticipated it before the end of the year.

Quite frankly the response your giving is counterproductive. If problems become manifest late in the testing process that doesn't mean the designers are incompetent and shoving it out anyway like EA did with WHO and its jacked up netcode anyway is a poor solution. If there is a problem then fix it and move on. Mistakes are going to be made and problems are going to arise when developing new technology. That doesn't mean give up.

If anything it points to an advantage that crowdfunding has over a VCO. There is no EA, Square Enix, or NCSoft contractually forcing the issue because they want a return quickly.
 

Axamander

N00b
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I mistyped and said pyramid instead of ponzi which should have been evident but I won't go back and edit it so you can have your laugh.

Every other game is not like this because most games don't preselll to 100% fund a game and then have to release multiple more blocks of pre sold "inventory". Digital goods not tangibles.

My startup right now is hardware related. We have to do pre sales in blocks so we aren't stuck with physical inventory we can't move. If someone requests a refund they get their money back and not a future sales money back.
They aren't selling shares so that is an even worse comparison. A ponzi scheme is when you have lie about investing in something and instead just get new investors to pay premiums to your old investors. At no point was CGI selling an investment. I bought a Cutlass back when they first announced it in 2014 and have never expected nor received a return.

That you are selling a physical item and the realities that presents in terms of storing inventory and the like is irrelevant. Sorry that you have to give near half your profits away as well with an investor breathing down your neck for more money but that doesn't justify sour grapes.

He put up a kickstarter and got a lot more money than he expected. By your logic he would've been ethical to keep the original business plan and pocket the difference. Prima facie that's asinine. What he did instead was broaden the scope and employ people across two continents. If people were uncomfortable with the change he offered their money back.

There is nothing illegal about presales and in an age where most CEOs are taking revenue and lining their pockets with big bonuses, I find a company reinvesting and employing more people to be a good thing.
 

uniqueuser

Vyemm Raider
1,774
4,988
He put up a kickstarter and got a lot more money than he expected. By your logic he would've been ethical to keep the original business plan and pocket the difference.
The ethical thing to do would've beennotcontinuing to fish for more funding using stretch goals as bait for another 2.5 years after the initial campaign ended.
 

Axamander

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The ethical thing to do would've beennotcontinuing to fish for more funding using stretch goals as bait for another 2.5 years after the initial campaign ended.
If he was taking the capital and putting it into his own pocket as opposed to expanding the business then you would have a point. He is still looking to hire more people.

Jobs - Cloud Imperium Games

They have postings for 60 jobs atm. Let's say they average at $40k a piece to be conservative that is $2.4m in annual salary he is looking to take on and that is before you consider the infrastructure etc they need to work in.

In reality the only inherent difference between getting a VCO to pay out $100m and getting it crowdfunded is that there is no leech with multiple holdings that would get exposed should the game fail. You don't need a financier to hire a CFO and listen to them. I mean do you think it would be better to get a VCO to pay that much out then sell 1.4m copies? All games have presales nowadays. That makes it ethical because a capitalist leech gets a piece?

I mean ffs it's no secret what the deal is when you buy in.
 

Denaut

Trump's Staff
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They have postings for 60 jobs atm. Let's say they average at $40k a piece to be conservative that is $2.4m in annual salary he is looking to take on and that is before you consider the infrastructure etc they need to work in.
For the average game cost per employee is ~$10,500 per person per month. So 60 more people is an extra $7.5m per year, not $2.4m.

Also, they are in way over their head and its been pretty clear they were since the moment the words "online" left their mouth.
 

Axamander

N00b
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For the average game cost per employee is ~$10,500 per person per month. So 60 more people is an extra $7.5m per year, not $2.4m.

Also, they are in way over their head and its been pretty clear they were since the moment the words "online" left their mouth.
I get that I was trying to be conservative for the sake of argument. I even qualified it as such to make a point.

And other than snark do you have any basis for claims of it being 'over their head?' Given this community's penchant for taking cynicism as virtue, I put absolutely no value in such claims without basis.
 

Eidal

Molten Core Raider
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Yeah why prove something when you can go straight to innuendo and pass it off anyway, right?
Okay, well, at the very least, he's shelling out cash for a-list actors to do voice-overs. I wonder what other dumb shit he's purchasing.
 

Axamander

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Okay, well, at the very least, he's shelling out cash for a-list actors to do voice-overs. I wonder what other dumb shit he's purchasing.
While it's definitely not my thing, I typically cannot hit spacebar fast enough most of the time, I'm not so pigheaded as to think it's not an appealing game feature particularly for getting genpop's attention for a single player game. Else telltale games wouldn't have a market.

One of you guys going to have the balls to claim they are going to run out of money or something real and substantive or we just going to stick with snark and incredulity like a pack of malcontented hipsters?
 

Denaut

Trump's Staff
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And other than snark do you have any basis for claims of it being 'over their head?' Given this community's penchant for taking cynicism as virtue, I put absolutely no value in such claims without basis.
Professional judgement. Everything they've said and released is at odds with the reality of anyone that has experienced actual online development.
 

a_skeleton_03

<Banned>
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While it's definitely not my thing, I typically cannot hit spacebar fast enough most of the time, I'm not so pigheaded as to think it's not an appealing game feature particularly for getting genpop's attention for a single player game. Else telltale games wouldn't have a market.

One of you guys going to have the balls to claim they are going to run out of money or something real and substantive or we just going to stick with snark and incredulity like a pack of malcontented hipsters?
What you aren't getting is that for all intents and purposes they already did run out of money.

He raised a certain amount for a certain game. He failed to deliver that and needed more so he raised more money. The initial amount raised is spent and gone.
 

Axamander

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Professional judgement. Everything they've said and released is at odds with the reality of anyone that has experienced actual online development.
Hyperbole is fun but not overly compelling. Care to be specific? Have anything other than a regurgitation of something Derek Smart claims which more or less is incredulity and whinging over crowdfunding as a way to finance a production?
 

Axamander

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What you aren't getting is that for all intents and purposes they already did run out of money.

He raised a certain amount for a certain game. He failed to deliver that and needed more so he raised more money. The initial amount raised is spent and gone.
Have any proof of that? I already think your full of shit so I don't take anything you say at face value.
 

a_skeleton_03

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Okay enjoy your fanboy shill status. When you automatically accuse anyone who doesn't agree with your battered wife opinions they are labeled a DS drone.

Yeah you aren't actually rational about this topic and just debating. You are knee jerk defending m'lady Chris like he's a poor damsel and you are the strongest white knight on the Internet.
 

Denaut

Trump's Staff
2,739
1,279
Hyperbole is fun but not overly compelling. Care to be specific? Have anything other than a regurgitation of something Derek Smart claims which more or less is incredulity and whinging over crowdfunding as a way to finance a production?
Wasn't any hyperbole. Making a AAA modern Freelancer game while building a brand new studio from the ground up is an extremely difficult and expensive, but achievable, goal.

Adding Borderlands or Dark Souls style multiplayer is a significant additional layer of complexity, but again this is an achievable goal.

The second the words "online" or "mmo" enter the picture is the moment every thing you do and every feature you create becomes an order of magnitude more difficult. Their proclamations of what they would deliver in the time frame they would deliver it shrieked of nothing but massive amounts of ignorance about what exactly they were signing up for.
 

Axamander

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Okay enjoy your fanboy shill status. When you automatically accuse anyone who doesn't agree with your battered wife opinions they are labeled a DS drone.

Yeah you aren't actually rational about this topic and just debating. You are knee jerk defending m'lady Chris like he's a poor damsel and you are the strongest white knight on the Internet.
My personal philosophy is a skeptic reductionist. The reductionist part isn't significant here but as a skeptic I don't believe anything without a reason to believe it. Reading your nonsense about crowdfunding as inherently unethical and championing VOC's I just don't find you credible in general.

I have no reason to believe you and you have not cited or referenced anything. Instead you flail using your canned explanation of fanboi shill when you don't really know anything about me. Your armchair psychologist nonsense about Stockholm syndrome isn't the most well thought out attempt to discredit that I've ever read.

Your claim; your proof. If you nothing then I won't believe it. It's not my fault you cannot articulate worth a damn.