Star Citizen Online - The search for more money

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Axamander

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Denaut_sl said:
Except they aren't.

Couldbe done includes things like throwing 1k people and a billion dollars at the project, or releasing the game over the course of 2 decades with each well tested piece being layered on top of other well tested pieces. I am in no way stating I am some genius that could totally do make SC happen like they have said it will, because I am not nearly arrogant enough to think I am a better developer than every other developer to have ever lived.

You still seem to think that the limitations areprimarilytechnical (there of course are technical difficulties) when they areprimarilythe production which includes the cascading effects caused by their technical obstacles.
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You categorically denied everything. Note your use of the word everything?

I talked about the technical side of things because I've been trying to get you to demonstrate some level of expertise which outside of self assuming circular reasoning, I've seen nothing. In fact you dodged it and tried ot big time me.

Everything does include the technical side of things but we also discussed corporate structure and the entire criticism of that from you has been that they're new and then incredulity. REcall my response about how listing developers that put out a working product does not indicate a limiting factor. You've said what they're trying to do is possible.

I return to the same Thomas Paine quote regarding the implementation of a new form of government that I started with in this thread:

Thomas Paine_sl said:
A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom. But the tumult soon subsides. Time makes more converts than reason.
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Nija

Nija

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Can we all just agree that the team they have assembled isn't going to complete all of the stated goals given an infinite timeframe?

They have Derek Smarted themselves so bad that Derek Smart himself has called them for it. Granted not many people were paying attention to the Battlecruiser stuff in the '90s, so maybe that comparison is lost on most. Let's look at politics. You can tell how inexperienced people are by how much they talk and how much they over promise. Look at what Schwarzenegger said when he ran for CA governor. Look at Obama's campaign messages. Look at what both of those people actually accomplished. This is the video game version of that.
 
uniqueuser

uniqueuser

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At this point, Star Citizen shares a lot more in common than just its initials with Roberts' last flop.

TheStrike Commanderproject took more than four years and over a million man hours on background development. Very little of that production time turned out to be actually usable in the final product, as at least one and possibly several complete project "reboots" were required to refine the graphical engine to a playable state.
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Mist

Mist

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How many people in this thread arguing have been regularly playing each build as it comes out?
 
Abefroman

Abefroman

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Mist_sl said:
How many people in this thread arguing have been regularly playing each build as it comes out?
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Dunno. What we have here is a thread where cultists are calling other people cultists. I give a fuck about beta and hope something gets released and I will play it then.
 
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Axamander

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Nija_sl said:
Can we all just agree that the team they have assembled isn't going to complete all of the stated goals given an infinite timeframe?

They have Derek Smarted themselves so bad that Derek Smart himself has called them for it. Granted not many people were paying attention to the Battlecruiser stuff in the '90s, so maybe that comparison is lost on most. Let's look at politics. You can tell how inexperienced people are by how much they talk and how much they over promise. Look at what Schwarzenegger said when he ran for CA governor. Look at Obama's campaign messages. Look at what both of those people actually accomplished. This is the video game version of that.
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Seeing that Battle Cruiser was trying to do something similar back in the early 90s and Smart failed spectacularly it makes sense that his ego would have an emotional investment for anyone attempting something similarly ambitious to fail. It's certainly petty but given equal parts of blatant self promotion in his critical work it seems certain to me.

Smart failed means Roberts will is oversimplified nonsense but I did enjoy namedropping unpopular politicians. Henry Ford and Howard Hughes were great inventors and criticized for their largesse yet still succeeded. National Semiconductor and the VCO paradigm had similar criticisms when they first tried that method back in the 1960s back when most development was isolated to Bell Labs, Westinghouse, and the like. They left their jobs and started a new company cause they couldn't stand MBA types either.

None of that means a damn thing as to whether or not CIG will be able to finish integrating a functioning game engine in the next 6 months.
 
Nija

Nija

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It's not really namedropping unpopular politicians. They were super popular. What I'm trying to point out is that you have these people standing up promising the world to people who believe it. I'm just trying to point out instances of people doing this repeatly in the past. Look up the original Ultima Online FAQ which included everything they were going to have in the game. Look at what was tried to be done with EQ Next. Look at SWG. Look at Ryzom. Look at Horizons. Look at the list goes on. You get the idea.

If we (the collective we, here) stop buying into the hype maybe we'll stop letting these idiots promise the world and deliver virtual dogshit. I can't even say dogshit in a box anymore, because who buys boxed games? Stop preordering. Stop paying for alpha/beta access. Pay for completed projects. Inspire producers, indies, kickstarter idiots to actually finish things.
 
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a_skeleton_03

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Nija_sl said:
If we (the collective we, here) stop buying into the hype maybe we'll stop letting these idiots promise the world and deliver virtual dogshit. I can't even say dogshit in a box anymore, because who buys boxed games?
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But, but, but Chris wrote a letter to the backers so it isn't virtual dogshit. Just because he couldn't meet what he promised doesn't matter, he wrote a letter ...
 
Eidal

Eidal

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Nija_sl said:
It's not really namedropping unpopular politicians. They were super popular. What I'm trying to point out is that you have these people standing up promising the world to people who believe it. I'm just trying to point out instances of people doing this repeatly in the past. Look up the original Ultima Online FAQ which included everything they were going to have in the game. Look at what was tried to be done with EQ Next. Look at SWG. Look at Ryzom. Look at Horizons. Look at the list goes on. You get the idea.

If we (the collective we, here) stop buying into the hype maybe we'll stop letting these idiots promise the world and deliver virtual dogshit. I can't even say dogshit in a box anymore, because who buys boxed games? Stop preordering. Stop paying for alpha/beta access. Pay for completed projects. Inspire producers, indies, kickstarter idiots to actually finish things.
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+1. Too bad the demographic that they prey off of can easily afford a few hundo to purchase hopium. The whale community will never change.
 
Nija

Nija

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The most interesting thing about Star Citizen is that it promises the most of any project. You can't sit down and soberly tell yourself that you are a reasonable person, and then stand up and say you believe that Star Citizen will deliver on all promised goals.

That's why a lot of people jump to the cult conclusion. You have to compromise with both yourself and with the company that you are supporting, for sometimes hundreds to thousands of dollars. What kind of person are you where you'll spend multiples of what a normal game costs and then take multiples, in the other direction, as the final deliverable? Is this a good summary of the problem with the DAMN MILLENIAL GENERATION? (sarcasm intended) I can expand on this more but I doubt this is the right place for that kind of discussion.
 
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Axamander

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Nija_sl said:
It's not really namedropping unpopular politicians. They were super popular. What I'm trying to point out is that you have these people standing up promising the world to people who believe it. I'm just trying to point out instances of people doing this repeatly in the past. Look up the original Ultima Online FAQ which included everything they were going to have in the game. Look at what was tried to be done with EQ Next. Look at SWG. Look at Ryzom. Look at Horizons. Look at the list goes on. You get the idea.

If we (the collective we, here) stop buying into the hype maybe we'll stop letting these idiots promise the world and deliver virtual dogshit. I can't even say dogshit in a box anymore, because who buys boxed games? Stop preordering. Stop paying for alpha/beta access. Pay for completed projects. Inspire producers, indies, kickstarter idiots to actually finish things.
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Theyre not popular now. The rest of what I said still stands.

All of the games you mentioned were managed by the standard VCO publisher paradigm. Despite that I enjoyed SWG and UO so I'm not sure what point your getting at. A lot of AAA titles that have come out and been unfinished and flawed have been because said publishers pulled the plug on development funding before the game was finished. Wildstar, Warhammer, and Age of Conan are all examples of that trend to me.

There is no way on Earth that EA would have allowed a developer to rewrite an engine 3.5 years into development. They probably should have let Jacobs do that with Warhammer.

To me your political comparison would be like the US changing from a two party system to a proportional parliamentary system and expecting the same outcome. Whether or not it will succeed remains to be seen. I'm ambivalent about it tbh but to say its just like all the rest is wrong. When it comes down to it the development will die when consumer confidence tanks or the demand otherwise dries up. There is no MBA type that is going to force the issue.
 
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Axamander

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Nija_sl said:
The most interesting thing about Star Citizen is that it promises the most of any project. You can't sit down and soberly tell yourself that you are a reasonable person, and then stand up and say you believe that Star Citizen will deliver on all promised goals.

That's why a lot of people jump to the cult conclusion. You have to compromise with both yourself and with the company that you are supporting, for sometimes hundreds to thousands of dollars. What kind of person are you where you'll spend multiples of what a normal game costs and then take multiples, in the other direction, as the final deliverable? Is this a good summary of the problem with the DAMN MILLENIAL GENERATION? (sarcasm intended) I can expand on this more but I doubt this is the right place for that kind of discussion.
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This shit just reads like generational smack and relatively meaningless generalizations. What specifically are they not going to deliver? IF you want to have that discussion then fine but the incredulity argument without any real basis gets tiresome.

Again, they are either going to integrate all of the systems into a single engine or they are not.
 
Skanda

Skanda

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Axamander_sl said:
Well how the hell am I supposed to know who he is?
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It's like you just dropped into this forum without even knowing the general attitude of the people here. I give Pantheon a much higher chance of seeing the light of day than I do this con job.
 
Nija

Nija

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I don't know the specifics of what they have promised to deliver, so I can't in good faith tell you what they won't deliver.

The fact that AAA studios failed spectacularly doesn't necessarily mean that an indie studio can succeed. Pulling the plug is often necessary. An indie studio that isn't governed as aggressively as a big studio is more likely to exacerbate the problem, in my opinion. What makes you think that out of the combined list of ambitious games that we have both assembled that this, THIS team is going to be the one to pull it off?! I just don't see it.
 
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shabushabu

shabushabu

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Nija_sl said:
I don't know the specifics of what they have promised to deliver, so I can't in good faith tell you what they won't deliver.

The fact that AAA studios failed spectacularly doesn't necessarily mean that an indie studio can succeed. Pulling the plug is often necessary. An indie studio that isn't governed as aggressively as a big studio is more likely to exacerbate the problem, in my opinion. What makes you think that out of the combined list of ambitious games that we have both assembled that this, THIS team is going to be the one to pull it off?! I just don't see it.
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At least they are trying to push some envelopes, even if only on paper.. its better than the penny counting LCD crap that the industry has been putting out for years...

Being skeptical is cool, but doubting the indies is like doubting Obi-Wan kenobi... they are our only hope.
 
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Axamander

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Skanda_sl said:
It's like you just dropped into this forum without even knowing the general attitude of the people here. I give Pantheon a much higher chance of seeing the light of day than I do this con job.
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You are not even talking about what I actually say but instead seek to defame me while you stamp your feet and declare your not going to believe me. Like Paine says time converts more sure than reason.

I actually used to post on the FOH boards back in the day. I'm well aware of how MMO development is generally received. I certainly remember the treatment McQuaid received. I also read this thread. If you want to accept the appeal to authority blindly then so be it. Like I said earlier as a skeptic, I don't believe anything without a reason. It's okay that you don't though. I won't judge you.

I figured I would get the same response as Variise. I have. You guys do like to gangup on opinions outside of the groupthink. I'm not crying about it; I just respond in kind.
 
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Axamander

N00b
108
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Nija_sl said:
I don't know the specifics of what they have promised to deliver, so I can't in good faith tell you what they won't deliver.

The fact that AAA studios failed spectacularly doesn't necessarily mean that an indie studio can succeed. Pulling the plug is often necessary. An indie studio that isn't governed as aggressively as a big studio is more likely to exacerbate the problem, in my opinion. What makes you think that out of the combined list of ambitious games that we have both assembled that this, THIS team is going to be the one to pull it off?! I just don't see it.
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LMAO. So you don't know shit but feel you can make predictions on outcome. Hells yeah. I want to party with you.
 
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