Star Citizen Online - The search for more money

  • Guest, it's time once again for the massively important and exciting FoH Asshat Tournament!



    Go here and give us your nominations!
    Who's been the biggest Asshat in the last year? Give us your worst ones!

uniqueuser

Vyemm Raider
1,775
4,989
This is an amusing take in light of the 'diversity' of takes that I've read from the opposition. They were defending parroting Smart's takes this morning "just because he's biased doesn't mean he's wrong.". Even this 'cultist' take is groupthink around here as someone characterized it earlier as "cultist calling others cultists."

That type of demonization is a popular propaganda technique particularly in war time. It's hard to treat someone like shit if you have any empathy unless you can frame them as somehow fundamentally different as opposed to a thinking human being just like yourself.
Being called a cultist is comparatively polite treatment because it extends the benefit of the doubt that you've merely been led astray but might yet see reason. It's preferable to being called a fucking slackjawed fool too stupid to balk when Roberts flat out says things like they'll be releasing the game as a "minimum viable product" (startup-speak for a week-old web app) that doesn't meet most of the stretch goals despite having raised nearly 2x the funding required in the 1.5 years since the last one.
 

Variise

N00b
497
17
Being called a cultist is comparatively polite treatment because it extends the benefit of the doubt that you've merely been led astray but might yet see reason. It's preferable to being called a fucking slackjawed fool too stupid to balk when Roberts flat out says things like they'll be releasing the game as a "minimum viable product" (startup-speak for a week-old web app) that doesn't meet most of the stretch goals despite having raised nearly 2x the funding required in the 1.5 years since the last one.
Still clinging to your zero-sum game theory.

Didn't realize game developers were supposed to be building brick shit houses.
 

Axamander

N00b
108
1
Being called a cultist is comparatively polite treatment because it extends the benefit of the doubt that you've merely been led astray but might yet see reason. It's preferable to being called a fucking slackjawed fool too stupid to balk when Roberts flat out says things like they'll be releasing the game as a "minimum viable product" (startup-speak for a week-old web app) that doesn't meet most of the stretch goals despite having raised nearly 2x the funding required in the 1.5 years since the last one.
Your malcontent FFA refugee hipster schtick is as cute as it is cliche.

I've already said that the biggest problem I've seen in MMO development in the past decade has been VC publishers whinging about completion dates and the return on their investment, thus forcing games out with critical flaws and before they're complete. Did it ever occur to you that the shit youre selling here is meaningless to me or are you like the typical mouthbreather that thinks that everyone thinks and cares about the same thing as them?

I'm not going to whinge about delays, particularly ones from last year, like an EA executive and for all your vitriol they continue to generate revenue, trucking along, and it doesn't cost me a dime.

You going to discuss what features you don't think are going to make it or you going to continue with trend of a generalized whine? Waving your hands and mischaracterizing legalese is fun though. I'm sure you'll do it again. You do like repeating yourself like an idiot.
 

Skanda

I'm Amod too!
6,662
4,506
I already addressed this. No I'm not a game dev.

Yes I do know more than most of you about game development but only because the majority of you peak at how to chat troll putting you slightly above a random person off the street. Barely.

I'm not a special snowflake.
And this is where I never take you seriously again.
 

uniqueuser

Vyemm Raider
1,775
4,989
Still clinging to your zero-sum game theory.

Didn't realize game developers were supposed to be building brick shit houses.
They're not exactly building castles in the sky, either. If the concept of "money in, game out" is too radical to someone in this industry, they should consider taking up a creative endeavor that isn't so consumer-facing.

I've already said that the biggest problem I've seen in MMO development in the past decade has been VC publishers
Venture Capital(ist) publishers? No major MMO publisher is structured like a VC firm, nor do they operate like one.

For all the imagined impatience on the part of your corporate taskmasters fiending for their ROI, I've yet to see an MMO from an established publisher released so prematurely that its own director referred to it as a "minimum viable product".

Your complaints are cliches and your wild ignorance has conjured up a boogeyman to pin blame on while ignoring the primary reasons that games turn out bad: infeasible (technological) and/or inconsistent (conceptual) design, dev inexperience/incompetence, and production mismanagement. Read any gamepostmortemand you'll find those to be the most lamented problems.
 

Axamander

N00b
108
1
They're not exactly building castles in the sky, either. If the concept of "money in, game out" is too radical to someone in this industry, they should consider taking up a creative endeavor that isn't so consumer-facing.

Venture Capital(ist) publishers? No major MMO publisher is structured like a VC firm, nor do they operate like one.

For all the imagined impatience on the part of your corporate taskmasters fiending for their ROI, I've yet to see an MMO from an established publisher released so prematurely that its own director referred to it as a "minimum viable product".

Your complaints are cliches and your wild ignorance has conjured up a boogeyman to pin blame on while ignoring the primary reasons that games turn out bad: infeasible (technological) and/or inconsistent (conceptual) design, dev inexperience/incompetence, and production mismanagement. Read any gamepostmortemand you'll find those to be the most lamented problems.
Since I called you a FFA refugee cliche you just had to do the PeeWee Herman? How droll.

Two things; one more involved then the other.

First, you are repeating yourself like an idiot. You can stamp your feet, clap you hands, scream and repetitively shout "minimum viable product" if you like but if you don't acknowledge how he qualified the term immediately following stating it and instead repeat derisive characterization then you will remain an idiot yapping. The term 'viable' is a relative term and that malformed angry thing you call a consciousness is not an objective measure for that.

Second is on the issue of deductions and how you suck at them. I made two similes and your argument against them were "You're wrong. Ad hominem. No basis. Gratuitous snark" and "It's not that. It's this. Wikipedia link." You are one intellectually lazy fuck.

Let's talk about the first comparison between game publishers and a venture capital firm. Now I never said they were the same I just said they were similar and all you did in response was a blanket dismissal without basis and then adding derisive commentary like you run of the mill hipster. In order to prove you wrong I just have to show how they operate similarly. That is easy in two fundamental ways.

1) They both give startup capital in return for a share of the profits.
2) They both exert control over product development through control of the budget if not through more explicit means like a board of directors.

Finally, is your denial in the role publishers play in the failure of games. Continuing along the lines of you sucking at deductions is the notion of mutual exclusivity. If you are going to provide a counter example to deduct an idea then you need to make sure that the two idea are mutually exclusive. This can be tricky because words have multiple meanings and a particular thing can be all kinds of things at once.

With the above in mind are your common problems mutually exclusive with the role a publisher plays in game development? Obviously not and here is my basis.

It became apparent in the late stages of Warhammer Online beta that there was an ability lag that behaved cumulatively the more people in the rendering area. It really became bad during keep and city sieges, the core endgame, where it would get up to seconds. Jacobs knew about it and was upfront with us. He said that the fix required a change to the core engine but they were not authorized to extend the release date and would not get any more money. Now I suppose that this would fall into the categories of technology and mismanagement but release dates and budgets are the bailiwick of the publisher. At the same time, EA grosses nearly $1b a quarter and they could've funded it but chose not to.

Given you personality type you likely would have enjoyed all the teeth gnashing and throwing of keyboards as CC breaks and heals delayed for over 3 seconds and wipes ensued. My guild quit because of it after awhile.

The release date or deadline is when the publisher gets their ROI. Generally speaking tech developers don't want deadlines. It's done when its done and shit happening is a fact of life; it gets back to the iterative process that V talks about. Chris Roberts refuses to give a release date. Publishers also define what the budget is and that becomes the primary parameter of what is possible. Going over budget is a fact of life where you have two groups with different priorities: publishers with the bottomline and developers in making cutting edge technology. The entire art of dealmaking with offer and counteroffer also feeds that dynamic.

With crowdfunding and presales, all of that dynamic goes away. There is no firm demanding a ROI. The budget is instead defined by consumer confidence and what the market will bear. It's the difference between venture capitalism and market capitalism.

Game publishers are like a cross between a venture capital firm who funds tech startups and the soulsucking jerks at the record companies who sign acts and sell their music. You are their champion.
 

Axamander

N00b
108
1
I take plenty seriously, just not video game studios turned scam artists or the fanatics who attempt to white wash them.
Purist partisans are always amusing. You remind me of sports fans.

I've said plenty negative about the game. I loathe Ben Lesnick. I'm a Cutlass owner and seen first hand that their outsourcing has produced shit. I just don't dumb down things into puritanical reductio ad absurdum absolutes and base my shit entirely on derisive characterizations as you are wont to do.

You guys publisher worshipping while like cheering for the house at blackjack has been amusing though.
 

RobXIII

Urinal Cake Consumption King
<Gold Donor>
3,852
2,224
So uh, back on track, whats the latest with this game? :p

(havent been following it much, just the occasional vid)
 

uniqueuser

Vyemm Raider
1,775
4,989
if you don't acknowledge how he qualified the term immediately following stating it and instead repeat derisive characterization then you will remain an idiot yapping.
He can qualify it with as many weasel words as he wants, it's still a direct admission that CIG will be foisting a woefully incomplete game on the public. I cringed when he abused the definition of "finished" by comparing SC to EVE and WoW, claiming,"I don?t think people would say EVE is finished or World of Warcraft is finished now.", as if there's no distinction between his interactive tech demo and established games released over a decade ago and with multiple expansions behind them.

Let's talk about the first comparison between game publishers and a venture capital firm. Now I never said they were the same I just said they were similar and all you did in response was a blanket dismissal without basis and then adding derisive commentary like you run of the mill hipster.
You ignore the foundational differences between the two entities because it allows you to paint publishers as evil using the predatory connotation of venture capitalism. The fact that most major dev studios these days are in-house divisions of their publisher and so share a long-term mutual self-interest, whereas VC firms are external investors looking to pump and dump, doesn't support your "intellectually lazy" (if not outright dishonest) comparison.

With crowdfunding and presales, all of that dynamic goes away. There is no firm demanding a ROI. The budget is instead defined by consumer confidence and what the market will bear. It's the difference between venture capitalism and market capitalism.
Yet the outcome is the same: the market is telling Roberts to shit or get off the pot, and it's why he's now talking about pinching off a minimum viable product instead of the full loaf. Will you also demonize your fellow backers, hungry for their "return", for their part in the game's premature release?
 

Variise

N00b
497
17
So uh, back on track, whats the latest with this game? :p

(havent been following it much, just the occasional vid)
I actually posted information on that further up with links.

Don't expect useful information from the usual suspects. I think a total of 3 of us actually posted content here.
 

Axamander

N00b
108
1
He can qualify it with as many weasel words as he wants, it's still a direct admission that CIG will be foisting a woefully incomplete game on the public. I cringed when he abused the definition of "finished" by comparing SC to EVE and WoW, claiming,"I don't think people would say EVE is finished or World of Warcraft is finished now.", as if there's no distinction between his interactive tech demo and established games released over a decade ago and with multiple expansions behind them.


You ignore the foundational differences between the two entities because it allows you to paint publishers as evil using the predatory connotation of venture capitalism. The fact that most major dev studios these days are in-house divisions of their publisher and so share a long-term mutual self-interest, whereas VC firms are external investors looking to pump and dump, doesn't support your "intellectually lazy" (if not outright dishonest) comparison.

Yet the outcome is the same: the market is telling Roberts to shit or get off the pot, and it's why he's now talking about pinching off a minimum viable product instead of the full loaf. Will you also demonize your fellow backers, hungry for their "return", for their part in the game's premature release?
Line by line. What a maroon.

So you are going to continue to repeat yourself and insist on ignoring his unprovoked explanation of what he meant that immediate followed and continue to wishcast a poorly formed negative outcome. Thanks for the chuckles

See Einstein always said that repeating things expecting a different result was madness. I have a different take: it's idiocy

Seeing that in the case of Chris Roberts he wasn't already owned by a publisher, WGAF?

LOL nowadays. Championing their monopolization of the market as an excuse is a nice touch. That it is difficult to startup outside of them is not a good thing as well as being besides the point. If anything it reinforces my point about your publisher worship being asinine.

The market bought hundreds of thousands of new accounts last quarter. You're characterization is just more fantasy.