Star Citizen Online - The search for more money

Abefroman · Oct 2, 2015

I think all they are doing is printing money the same way games like Hearthstone get suckers to spend entire paychecks on fucking electronic cards. They should sell a rapist van ship that comes with some sexualized child that all the fucking pedo weaboos always play in Asian MMO's, then they could really make some money.

Draegan_sl · Oct 2, 2015

Itzena_sl said:
Personally I'd say releasing a game before all the money runs out is theiractualbiggest issue but that's just my opinion man.

I'm pretty confident we'll get their single player game and in pretty good shape.

Valderen · Oct 2, 2015

I think their ability to deliver on Star Citizen the MMO hinges on Squadron 42.

Squadron 42 success could infuse them with a large amount of cash to easily continue development, especially with 2 add-ons already planned.

bleedat · Oct 2, 2015

cant even read this thread because of Krip.

Vandyn · Oct 2, 2015

Follow up from Escapist.

The Escapist Explains Its Star Citizen Sources, Vetting and Response | Video Games | The Escapist

Variise · Oct 2, 2015

Kriptini_sl said:
Star Citizen isn't going to fail because of its concept, Star Citizen will fail because of mismanagement.

It won't tell the industry to not innovate, it'll tell the industry to not mismanage crowdfunded MMOs. Star Citizen is not MMO Jesus. There will always be innovation going on; that is how smaller studios will compete with the reigning champs.

The lesson to be learned from Star Citizen is to not set your budget on fire so your wife can direct a short film.

The "industry" is not crowdfunded and the majority of people don't buy indi games with few exceptions. Big corporations with stockholders rule the industry.

The only big name studio that does some innovation is... excuse me while I puke a little... Ubisoft. They experiment with risky games but keep big easy games in the pipeline like AC to easily fund those projects. An example would be The Division. Which has been chopped up quite a bit since it was first revealed so not sure how risky it really is anymore.

Your idea that small studios with small budgets innovate the shit out of big studios is laughable. There are very few that can do that and even fewer that have succeeded and none of them can do it without serious investors beyond the unwashed masses.

Variise · Oct 2, 2015

Treesong_sl said:
I like what CIG already has shown us (and given us to play around in), but I am still wondering about a lot of gameplay elements. The thing I am worried about the most is about all the "jobs" that the universe is supposed to give to players: running fuel, running passengers, offering tow-services, offering Medical and Repair services, picking up ejected players and such. Other MMO's seem to move away from "chores" in their development, or during their lifetime if they had them to start with.

If we look at an ejected player floating in space having the option of being picked up by a player with the appropriate tools/ship, this seems like a worse variant of having to ask around for players who could "bind" you in Everquest. Even if the proces of connecting the "victim" and the "savior" with eachother is smooth and painless (through some sort of communication) I feel this is never going to be really fun for either player.

A lot of the (transport) "services" (bring me fuel, a new ship, repairs, healing) also seem to have other options of obtaining them, especially when you think of organizations(Guilds) who tend to be self-sustaining in MMO's when it comes to services (classes). So still hard to see how being one of 3000 lone ranger "tow-truck" companies is going to be feasible(or fun), even if 90% of our jobs are from NPCs.

Offering other options in exchange for UEC will endanger these jobs even more(I am assuming you can choose to respawn even when you are not dead, for a hefty cost).

Also wondering about progression ( no paper doll with stats, instead you buy better ships and better upgrades and accumulate money), especially since this progression is dependant on your jobs and the Economy. Not saying there is no other fun to be had in this game, other then performing jobs with your ships! But let us not underestimate the deep-felt wish from most gamers to experience some solid progression in their game.

I guess I would like to read a little more about how fleshed out PvE (missions) will be, that is not reliant on content generated by players.

I would very much like to remind everyone what SOE did with SWG when they turned away from classless skills and went to a "progression" path with classes. It's still considered one of the most epic examples of a company shitting the bed in the gaming industry. I wouldn't be surprised if it was used as an example of what NOT to do for MBAs or gaming development schools once you setup your game to play and feel a certain way and suddenly changing that.

We don't need another shitty F2P game requiring 10,000 hours of gameplay to fully obtain imaginary stats. If you put a number that can be increased via money, time etc in front of a person they will naturally attempt to progress in that direction. It will be the only motivating factor beyond the gear to help you move that number up the screen.

Bullshit.

That is not what nearly a million people signed up for. It's supposed to be an FPS experience but with all the other things you could never do in other games.

We are talking about vastly different experiences that people would want from a game. Fuck that.

Variise · Oct 2, 2015

Denaut_sl said:
These are all vague ideas at best and not designs. Designs are dry with lots of lists, tables, numbers and usually accompanying spreadsheets. Farming is not a module, but an entire game-play system which if designed would require even more details (especially the math underlying it), and it would include how it hooks into the other equally detailed game systems.

Ok I'm just going to point out right now that fucking nobody is ever going to post the actual Design Doc for anything from any game currently in production. Ever. It just invites bullshit arguments from people that don't have all the facts.

So you aren't wrong in saying that it's basically a PR/Marketing Doc but that's as close as we are going to get until the system is built out and ready to use and they revisit it with a massive update on how that system actually works. It still won't be a "Design Doc" per say but again closer to the real thing.

Demanding this type of detail from them is just ridiculous. Wait for the implementation sometime next year.

Denaut · Oct 2, 2015

Variise_sl said:
Ok I'm just going to point out right now that fucking nobody is ever going to post the actual Design Doc for anything from any game currently in production. Ever. It just invites bullshit arguments from people that don't have all the facts.

So you aren't wrong in saying that it's basically a PR/Marketing Doc but that's as close as we are going to get until the system is built out and ready to use and they revisit it with a massive update on how that system actually works. It still won't be a "Design Doc" per say but again closer to the real thing.

Demanding this type of detail from them is just ridiculous. Wait for the implementation sometime next year.

It looks and reads exactly like what people who don't know how to write a design think a design document is supposed to be. I've seen them more times than I care to count. A design document for a ship, even one written for public consumption, isn't the stream of consciousness ramblings of a dude typing about modules while on the shitter.

Abefroman · Oct 2, 2015

Here is a real design doc by pros!

Variise · Oct 2, 2015

Skanda_sl said:
Yes, thought theoretically you will eventually be able to buy them as well if you save enough in game money. Not PTW at all.

/s

Edit: I imagine salt from all sides if this game makes it live. The noobs that didn't have 10k dollars to drop on good ships will find themselves at a major disadvantage establishing themselves. And the people who bought that really good ship for X dollars will be pissed off that the ship 'only' costs 100,000 in game currency which turns out isn't all that much.

Bullshit.

This is coming from a person who never played AC. If you had you would know that someone better than you can stomp your ass in a "lesser" ship. Skill matters much more than gear. The comparison is only valid when you pit equally skilled players against one another. At that point it's no contest.

There is definitely a progression in some ships (mostly the same class of ships within makes and competing makes from various vendors) so that makes sense but by and large they are designed to be good at something and not so good at others giving other players a chance to wipe the floor with them or not be too bothered by seeing an enemy flying a ship. There is no one amazing ship that beats them all.

There are videos out there with essentially noob ships like the Aurora LN wiping out scores of players and clearing the NPC horde mode. That's a relatively minimally armed ship when compared to something like a hulking Super Hornet. Skill > Gear

Skanda · Oct 2, 2015

Variise_sl said:
Bullshit.

This is coming from a person who never played AC. If you had you would know that someone better than you can stomp your ass in a "lesser" ship. Skill matters much more than gear. The comparison is only valid when you pit equally skilled players against one another. At that point it's no contest.

There is definitely a progression in some ships (mostly the same class of ships within makes and competing makes from various vendors) so that makes sense but by and large they are designed to be good at something and not so good at others giving other players a chance to wipe the floor with them or not be too bothered by seeing an enemy flying a ship. There is no one amazing ship that beats them all.

There are videos out there with essentially noob ships like the Aurora LN wiping out scores of players and clearing the NPC horde mode. That's a relatively minimally armed ship when compared to something like a hulking Super Hornet. Skill > Gear

I wasn't referring to PvP. Fuck your PvP horse shit unachievable balance, I don't give two flying fucks about that. This is a game where you are suppose to find a roll and fill it. Things like exploring, merchants, etc. You can't sit here with a straight face and try to tell me that some of those giant ass 1000+ dollar ships won't give a massive advantage to those players in getting established as power players in whatever respective roll they chose to adopt. And if they don't you can bet there will be a massive backlash as the idiots that paid for those ships feel cheated because their fancy ass ship they spend a months salary on can barely measure up against the noob ship.

Variise · Oct 2, 2015

Raign_sl said:
At this point, I truly hope balancing pay pay to win is their biggest issue. Seems like every week, we get some new piece of news about more features they are planning on adding with very little progress seen on those already promised. My prediction is even more grim, I bet that we end up with a hand full of mini games and a lobby with matchmaking and that is it. The persistent universe, landing on planets, boarding enemy ships, space stations, and the list goes on and on... vapourware at best, non-existent at worst.

I hope I'm wrong, I really want this to succeed -- but at this point I am losing a lot of faith in their ability to deliver some of the key things that would give this game longevity.

No new feature has been released. There hasn't been for I don't know how long now... 60 million mark or so?

What you are seeing is them filling in more information on things mentioned like 6-12 months ago as development progresses.

This is the problem when trying to discuss a project like this. Virtually nobody here follows the project on a daily/weekly basis and they aren't going to start to so they are forming ideas and concepts based on what they assume is happening and mistaking it for something else. In this case it's new features. Nope this was promised way back when the ship was first announced. I would expect way more detail once it's in game in maybe 6+ months.

Erronius · Oct 2, 2015

Valderen_sl said:
Squadron 42 success could infuse them with a large amount of cash to easily continue development, especially with 2 add-ons already planned.

We'll see, but I'm immediately dubious when I hear things like this. CoughReckoningCough

Draegan_sl · Oct 2, 2015

I don't think you can compare the two like that. S42 and the MMO are the same engine on the same platform and has been designed like that from the start. Reckoning is none of those things.

Kriptini · Oct 2, 2015

Variise_sl said:
Your idea that small studios with small budgets innovate the shit out of big studios is laughable. There are very few that can do that and even fewer that have succeeded and none of them can do it without serious investors beyond the unwashed masses.

You strawmanned me, I did not say or imply that "small studios with small budgets innovate the shit out of big studios." Leave your feels out of the discussion, dude, I'm not judging you.

However, if you're implying that indie studios do the exact same things as larger studios andsurvivelike that, then you're deluded. Indies have to innovate somewhat in order to get noticed. They have to have some "diamond in the rough" feature or quality or they'll just blend in with a sea of identical titles.

Just look at concept for Star Citizen. I seriously doubt most of the crowdfunding came from Chris Roberts fans. It's much more likely that the game was funded majorly by people who liked the concept, which is innovative enough.

Variise · Oct 2, 2015

Skanda_sl said:
I wasn't referring to PvP. Fuck your PvP horse shit unachievable balance, I don't give two flying fucks about that. This is a game where you are suppose to find a roll and fill it. Things like exploring, merchants, etc. You can't sit here with a straight face and try to tell me that some of those giant ass 1000+ dollar ships won't give a massive advantage to those players in getting established as power players in whatever respective roll they chose to adopt. And if they don't you can bet there will be a massive backlash as the idiots that paid for those ships feel cheated because their fancy ass ship they spend a months salary on can barely measure up against the noob ship.

Sure you will have an advantage if you start in a larger hauler for example vs a noob. There is no disputing that. However there is nothing preventing the noob from obtaining that same hauler later down the road. Can they spend money to obtain it? Sure. Can they obtain it completely through invested time/effort? Yes.

I have played a ton of other games and you are absolutely dwarfed unless you pay up and that never lets up from the day you join a game to the day to quit 5-6 years down the road. Typically P2W games funnel money consistently from the same people who pay to get the kind of gear you cannot obtain any other way. Or they make it dependent entirely on the player market to sell paid ships to non-paying customers for in-game currency. But the cost is so high you could literally play every day for a year for one ship or one "thing". That's built in to entice you to open your wallet. Chris has promised to not make the game like that. That is essentially what we are going on. A promise.

Now I'll grant you one thing. The game isn't even at a point right now where we can judge this since technically we don't know prices vs effort to obtain. The only piece of information we know is the very rough estimate of 20-25 hours of effort to obtain a standard empty Constellation hull which is a ballpark figure and obviously doesn't exist in the game to judge. We won't know for probably another 12 months.

I'll concede now that the funding model allows for P2W but you have to concede that it can't be compared to other F2P games until the PU is at a release stage and we know the prices and effort required to obtain items.

So lets you and me come back to this in a year and compare notes.

Skanda · Oct 2, 2015

Variise_sl said:
Sure you will have an advantage if you start in a larger hauler for example vs a noob. There is no disputing that. However there is nothing preventing the noob from obtaining that same hauler later down the road. Can they spend money to obtain it? Sure. Can they obtain it completely through invested time/effort? Yes.

Now take this and reread my original statement. Because you know it's going to be true.

Tuco · Oct 2, 2015

Valderen_sl said:
I think their ability to deliver on Star Citizen the MMO hinges on Squadron 42.

Squadron 42 success could infuse them with a large amount of cash to easily continue development, especially with 2 add-ons already planned.

Erronius_sl said:
We'll see, but I'm immediately dubious when I hear things like this. CoughReckoningCough

Draegan_sl said:
I don't think you can compare the two like that. S42 and the MMO are the same engine on the same platform and has been designed like that from the start. Reckoning is none of those things.

Nah, they are extremely comparable. Reckoning was a singleplayer game built to generate revenue and build enough excitement to finish development of a much larger-scale MMO. SC is funded differently but at this point I think it's resting its future on S42 much more than they ever wanted to. If S42 knocks it out of the park they'll get a huge influx of cash and are safe. If it fails like Reckoning it's very likely SC will follow suit. But instead of Boston holding the sack of shit, it'll be all the whales.

Vandyn_sl said:
Follow up from Escapist.

The Escapist Explains Its Star Citizen Sources, Vetting and Response | Video Games | The Escapist

This explanation is reason #2 why good journalists don't rely on anonymous sources. #1 is because the information is often shit and #3 is because it can't be verified. It's a hit piece and shit journalism, but hey, it's the Escapist so what do you expect?

Tuco · Oct 2, 2015

Skanda_sl said:
I wasn't referring to PvP. Fuck your PvP horse shit unachievable balance, I don't give two flying fucks about that. This is a game where you are suppose to find a roll and fill it. Things like exploring, merchants, etc. You can't sit here with a straight face and try to tell me that some of those giant ass 1000+ dollar ships won't give a massive advantage to those players in getting established as power players in whatever respective roll they chose to adopt. And if they don't you can bet there will be a massive backlash as the idiots that paid for those ships feel cheated because their fancy ass ship they spend a months salary on can barely measure up against the noob ship.

I think the big reasons you shouldn't worry about whales is:
1. The MMO aspect will probably be semi-limited and optional.
2. I'm betting that pure mudflation will cause the ships bought today by whales to become outdated and easily achievable pretty quickly in Star Citizen. Being able to buy end-game stuff in a game meant to keep folks playing for years makes no sense.

Star Citizen Online - The search for more money

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