Star Wars: The Force Awakens (2015)

Gavinmad

Gavinmad

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Even with heavy weapons you didn't stand toe to toe fighting edge to edge with someone if you actually wanted your sword to be capable of killing the next guy you fought.
 
Lithose

Lithose

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Gavinmad_sl said:
Even with heavy weapons you didn't stand toe to toe fighting edge to edge with someone if you actually wanted your sword to be capable of killing the next guy you fought.
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Yeah, exactly; when I say "strength matches" I mean the big power swings you see. But often knights wouldn't use their primary blade to "block", they'd either move themselves so it would come down on some heavy armor or use a shield or just avoid it. The only time your sword was really used to block is when you could strike at his blade before he really had some momentum on it (Which, as said, is more to open him up). Otherwise, blocking risked your sword breaking...Of course, I suppose if you had heavy weapons and no armor, you'd have to block sometimes--but if that were the case (No armor) you'd be better off with a light, fast weapon. (Which is part of the reason that style evolved after firearms).
 
Raes

Raes

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You don't do hard blocks with a rapier because you can't. A lightsaber isn't going to break, bend or notch. You're purposefully looking at this all wrong to support your incorrect theory.
 
j00t

j00t

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Lithose_sl said:
You'd think that (I know I used too, as well--it seems to make sense), but it's really not how sword fighting works when all you need is a touch to do major damage. The whole concept of really "locking blades" just doesn't happen in that case--there are parries, for sure, but if you're at all a decent swordsmen a parry is about a small deflection (To change the direction of your opponents blade) to give you an opening of attack, it's not about "blocking" it (In a way parries are more striking your opponents blade to open him up, than defense). The moment someone puts his sword up for a "power block", like you saw in RoTJ? Your opponent, if the weapon is light, is simply going to change the course of his strike mid fight and take an arm off. I forgot to mention it earlier, but someone else did--the lack of weight makes anenormousdifference in how you fight (Which is one reason why fencing evolved as it did). I'm not good at fencing, mind you--My buddy is a C-Ranked fencer and I take some classes for fun at his gym. But even the "saber style" fencing, which is generally heavier then the other forms (And uses the blade end)? Doesn't play out with two hands and strength blocks/attacks, because "light weapons" are just easy to change course mid flight.

Jedi fighting seems to be modeled after, as someone else said, Japanese Swordsmanship or Medieval long sword use--both styles which evolved heavier weapons to deal with armor. In those fights, strength matches happened because the heavy blade required some commitment to the swing (Which was also required to do anything to armor. You really had to commit to your blow.)

But in a duel where you're using a very light weapon, and your opponent has no armor? That kind of heavy "beating" style of sword fighting doesn't happen; it's shockingly easy to flick your wrist when someone goes to block and score a point by touching them somewhere (Which, with a light saber, means they just lost a hunk of flesh at the least). And that's with a sword that still weighs a few pounds; a sword that weighs nothing and can cut your arm off through just touching it? Any big strength matches that arose would just let the quicker swordsmen take an arm or some other part you left exposed by flicking his wrist mid flight to change where he was going to hit.
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Close. Japanese swordsmanship used the katana, which was, historically, incredibly light for a longsword. You used two hands for leverage. Samurai NEVER aimed for the armor proper because it was too strong. Instead, they aimed for the silk that held the armor together. Using two hands made much easier to put the blade in-between the plates and then bring the sword back to actually cut the silk.

In fencing, you should rarely be swinging the foil, you should be stabbing and you better range and thrust with one hand. Weight doesn't play into it as much unless you are talking about medieval English weaponry
 
Lithose

Lithose

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Raes_sl said:
You don't do hard blocks with a rapier because you can't. A lightsaber isn't going to break, bend or notch. You're purposefully looking at this all wrong to support your incorrect theory.
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No, you don't do them because it makes it really easy to have a point scored on you by anyone competent. This is Saber fencing, which is most analogous (Because you can score with any part of the weapon). Look at how real fights look when all you need to do is touch.



You don't do hard blocks because that isn't how fights work with weapons that move that quickly. You'd look like an idiot as someone just moves their wrist a little bit to take a chunk out of you. You have a completely distorted view of what combat would look like when all you need is a touch.
 
Lithose

Lithose

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j00t_sl said:
In fencing, you should rarely be swinging the foil, you should be stabbing and you better range and thrust with one hand. Weight doesn't play into it as much unless you are talking about medieval English weaponry
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Yeah, that's what I said. If you have a weighless weapon that can maim with a touch, it's going to evolve more like fencing. I linked saber because you can score with the blade too; but given the weapon, you'd probably hardly ever go for a slash.
 
Raes

Raes

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You keep focusing on the fact that both are extremely light weapons, while ignoring the fact that one is rather fragile steel and the other is fucking made of plasma.


"Due to the weightlessness of plasma and the strong gyroscopic effect generated by it, lightsabers required a great deal of strength and dexterity to wield, and it was extremely difficult-and dangerous-for the untrained to attempt using."
 
Famm

Famm

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Khalan_sl said:
that fight was so bad. LOL @ the ship shooting Obi-Wan and he basically gets thrown back.
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Gavinmad_sl said:
Dude that's standard in basically everything. Big heavy gun shoots at the hero, but luckily hits the ground in front of him instead of hitting him directly.
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IDK man, first he took a direct his with Fett's missile, then direct blasts from Slave I's canons? Aren't those designed to fuck upOTHER STARFIGHTERS?Obi should have been smithereens. I don't recall anything that egregious in the OT. There were a few parts of that fight that were at least ok, but it was ruined also by the terrible looking CGI blasts/explosions, and the cringeworthy jedi kung fu kicks.
 
Famm

Famm

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Raes_sl said:
You keep focusing on the fact that both are extremely light weapons, while ignoring the fact that one is rather fragile steel and the other is fucking made of plasma.


"Due to the weightlessness of plasma and the strong gyroscopic effect generated by it, lightsabers required a great deal of strength and dexterity to wield, and it was extremely difficult-and dangerous-for the untrained to attempt using."
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Yeah that's true, I read about that before and forgot. Might not be 100% official canon but its a decent enough explanation.
 
Lithose

Lithose

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Raes_sl said:
You keep focusing on the fact that both are extremely light weapons, while ignoring the fact that one is rather fragile steel and the other is fucking made of plasma.


"Due to the weightlessness of plasma and the strong gyroscopic effect generated by it, lightsabers required a great deal of strength and dexterity to wield, and it was extremely difficult-and dangerous-for the untrained to attempt using."
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Look at the actual "real life" fight, Raes. When do you see a chance to block there? When would those power blocks have happened? The FRAGILE STEEL doesn't matter, you would lose if you tried to lock swords with someone-- it is just too easy to stop and move your blade around a stationary one, even in mid flight (You don't have to swing hard when all you need is a touch). I know this because a couple years ago when I got to fence for the first time, I watched it happen to me. And guess what? EVERYONE makes your mistake, everyone thinks they need to block with the sword, only to be standing there dumb founded as their friend lights them up with a quick tap somwhere else because the sword changed directions mid flight.

Your post-hoc explanation is something from wookiepedia explaining why zero-weight swords actually needed to be wielded like clubs (And yet are light and fast enough to deflect ranged weaponry!); but it's not in the movies, nor is it ever referenced in the films (Nor is it even supported by the films, since as said, I saw Jedi dancing around and waving them around like a baton at a gay pride parade).

In the end, all light saber fights have an inherent silliness to them; as does most on screen fighting when compared to reality. Which is why, as RLM pointed out pretty eloquently--what makes a fight good or not is thecontextsurrounding it. What's important isn't how it is judged against realism, but how it's judged in the universe itself. And having what seemed to be clubs in the originals, be used by Yoda while doing a gymnastics routine with his, by Dookue like a fencing foil? Makes itallseem dumb, because it is completely contradictory in nature (And my comment was, with all that we saw on screen, most likely at least Dooku's style would be the one used).
 
Raes

Raes

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Lithose, you're the one comparing real weapons to imaginary ones and claiming thatthisis how they should have been wielded, and refusing to consider anything that goes against your pet theory.
 
Lithose

Lithose

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Raes_sl said:
Lithose, you're the one comparing real weapons to imaginary ones and claiming thatthisis how they should have been wielded, and refusing to consider anything that goes against your pet theory.
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I'm taking styles on see on the screen and comparing them to how fighting really works, yes. You're quoting wookiepedia to try and justify contradictory things on the screen. It's not a fucking theory either in how fencing works--it is how god damn fencing works(And Christopher Lee was using what he learned as a fencer, that's why he had a grip like he did). Ask anyone who has actually picked up a foil and used it against another human being; rather than some neck beard who has a ton of edits on Wookiepedia.
 
Famm

Famm

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Lithose_sl said:
In the end, all light saber fights have an inherent silliness to them; as does most on screen fighting when compared to reality. Which is why, as RLM pointed out pretty eloquently--what makes a fight good or not is thecontextsurrounding it.
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Yeah, like that Obi/Fett fight. Even if it had been a better scene, I can't for the life of me recallwhythe stakes were so life and death at that moment exactly. Speaks to how shit the plot and story was.

Its not like "Boba has Han!" "we have to rescue the princess!" "I have to sacrifice myself to help them escape" "they are about to blow up Endor" "I have to save my father and defeat the emperor"

Contrasted with "I was supposed to find out where Jango is going and why"? Pretty lame. Makes a fight seem hard to believe because the stakes and your involvement are seemingly non-existent.
 
Raes

Raes

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I don't have to ask anyone, I've used both foils and rapiers. Every style of sword combat is based around pretty much each individual weapon. A lightsaber is not a foil.
 
Agraza

Agraza

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Yea, jedi are supposed to enter into everything with calm and perspective. He really could have had a conversation with Fett, got nowhere, and both walked off. Their fighting was unnecessary, but it did start with the kid using some frigate turrets on him, and really, these movies are about people fighting with laser swords. This was an opportunity to have one.
 
Famm

Famm

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Lithose_sl said:
I'm taking styles on see on the screen and comparing them to how fighting really works, yes. You're quoting wookiepedia to try and justify contradictory things on the screen. It's not a fucking theory either in how fencing works--it is how god damn fencing works(And Christopher Lee was using what he learned as a fencer, that's why he had a grip like he did). Ask anyone who has actually picked up a foil and used it against another human being; rather than some neck beard who has a ton of edits on Wookiepedia.
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You've already gotten the top answer to why they were two handers, Lucas was emulating Kurusawa samurai movies. Its as neckbearded as anything on the wookie to debate the real life fencing implications of how lightsabers are wielded.
 
Lithose

Lithose

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Raes_sl said:
I don't have to ask anyone, I've used both foils and rapiers. Every style of sword combat is based around pretty much each individual weapon. A lightsaber is not a foil.
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Okay, so you agree with me that if you set up for a hard block you'd be quickly scored on--I'm not even ranked and I know that. (More importantly I've seen it happen to me.) Now, the original comment was that since Dooku was able to use his lightsaber in this style--one handed with a pistol grip (Fencing), that is probably the closest to "realism" as was in the movies. Because that was the PREMISE of the conversation earlier--realism in fight scenes. Since Dookue CAN wield his saber like that, it points to sabers being able to be wielded like that...Ergo (See what I did there), that would probably be the most realistic fighting style given the weapon. (Again, because we know from his style it IS possible to wield this ultra deadly weapon inthisway.)

That's it--theconversation was about comparing it to RL(And since we've seen the fencing style works, we KNOW it is possible for a saber to be wielded like that)...Your quotecontradicts what we saw on screen--which was the problem with the prequels (Which is pretty much what the conversation boiled down to).
 
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