Star Wars: The Force Awakens (2015)

j00t · Aug 23, 2015

j00t_sl said:
Honestly, I don't remember. I thought it was just a name drop, though, not a big part of the episode.

After some digging, in not sure what I was thinking. Maybe I just assumed Revan was mentioned by darth bane in the last episode since he created the rule of two after finding Revan's holocron. But there's no mention of revan in any canon

Lithose · Aug 23, 2015

I think the whole EU, and "magic" concept of Jedi is what made Han's statement seem odd (That in addition to the invention of the internet in the real world--bear with me). In reality, the Jedi are supposed to be like the Knights Templar or some other "religious" order...Except their "miracles" are real. However, their miracles only involve things which allow people to remain skeptical, fast movement,reflexes, some telekinesis...Stuff that could be explained away skeptically (Kind of like real "miracles"). In addition, the fact is that the movies were made in the 70's, and the idea of an "internet" sharing information seamlessly was still not in Lucas' mind? You can see he imagined a universe where electronic information still needed to be hand delivered or called from point to point.

Inthatkind of universe, even if someone on planet bumblefuck had a video of the Jedi doing crazy shit--how many people would see it? Especially if the Emporer makes it illegal to broadcast it. In OUR world, that kind of information gag doesn't work; because we know now how information works in an advanced society...But in the 70's? It kind of makes sense. The Jedi weren't flashy, and information was still point to point...Combine that with only 10k jedi vs trillions of people, and a 19 year moratorium on mentioning them--and a smuggler from the outer rings things the Jedi were just a bunch of old idiots from some war worshiping some hocus pocus seems plausible. I mean, after all, imagine your on a planet with no Jedi; your teachers aren't allowed to say anything, the News doesn't show anything and you have no internet...The only thing you'd have is some private stories from your elders...Some people (VERY few) might have a few videos or novels about them, but that's it...for most people they are a myth.

That being said, the whole indulgence of "super Jedi" makes it less plausible. One thing Lucas was absolutely right on? Was keeping Jedi powers muted. Again, these were supposed to be knights, not super heroes. And yeah, knights on a battle field were a big deal; they were feared, hard to kill and very deadly. But they weren't armies, and they weren't gods. It was the fans who really power creeped the Jedi (And the EU writers)...They made them much stronger and "heroic" than they were supposed to be...When really, some highly trained dude like Fett should give one a run for their money by relying on technology (Like a fight between a knight and a really skilled mercenary)...But to the fans? Even stating it isn't a completely lop sided fight is sacrilege, which is dumb.

Jait · Aug 23, 2015

I've never understood the confusion at all.

They're two entirely different series. I don't see anyone asking why FOX and Disney aren't doing any Marvel crossovers any time soon. Why would you think Disney would want to share a penny with Bioware or pimp their products? We're all geeks here, but thinking Kotor and EU and any of that shit is popular and you're just deluding yourself. They are absolute drops in the bucket. Disney would sooner create a Gungun Jedi before sharing any profits with anyone.

Lithose · Aug 23, 2015

Oh, and about the realism of how fights looked (From earlier in the thread)...Honestly, the most realistic fights are when Dooku isn't being CGI'd. How Christopher Lee moved with his saber, using a pistol grip? Is probably how someone would look with such an ultra deadly weapon (The fights were silly, but Lee was good). It's why fencing evolved to use the Pistol grip; because when all that's needed is a touch of the blade, having a grip like that allows for more control and more precise movements.

The whole concept of using two hands for a weapon that can cut through anything without using real strength? Is always silly from a 'realism" perspective. Lee though used his fencing, which grew from the type of combat that probably would have arisen from such deadly "one hit" weapons (IE street duels with very light foils/rapiers). Without armor, and a blade that could use gravity to melt through someone? Any weapon meant to enhance the strength of a blow (like two hands or even some pole arms?) would be useless.

In any case, yeah, the Obi-Wan vs Vader New Hope fight, where they dance around, clash briefly and quickly slide away? Most likely how fights would look, given how deadly the weapons are...The only difference is it would be one handed.

j00t · Aug 23, 2015

Lithose_sl said:
I think the whole EU, and "magic" concept of Jedi is what made Han's statement seem odd (That in addition to the invention of the internet in the real world--bear with me). In reality, the Jedi are supposed to be like the Knights Templar or some other "religious" order...Except their "miracles" are real. However, their miracles only involve things which allow people to remain skeptical, fast movement,reflexes, some telekinesis...Stuff that could be explained away skeptically (Kind of like real "miracles"). In addition, the fact is that the movies were made in the 70's, and the idea of an "internet" sharing information seamlessly was still not in Lucas' mind? You can see he imagined a universe where electronic information still needed to be hand delivered or called from point to point.

Inthatkind of universe, even if someone on planet bumblefuck had a video of the Jedi doing crazy shit--how many people would see it? Especially if the Emporer makes it illegal to broadcast it. In OUR world, that kind of information gag doesn't work; because we know now how information works in an advanced society...But in the 70's? It kind of makes sense. The Jedi weren't flashy, and information was still point to point...Combine that with only 10k jedi vs trillions of people, and a 19 year moratorium on mentioning them--and a smuggler from the outer rings things the Jedi were just a bunch of old idiots from some war worshiping some hocus pocus seems plausible. I mean, after all, imagine your on a planet with no Jedi; your teachers aren't allowed to say anything, the News doesn't show anything and you have no internet...The only thing you'd have is some private stories from your elders...Some people (VERY few) might have a few videos or novels about them, but that's it...for most people they are a myth.

That being said, the whole indulgence of "super Jedi" makes it less plausible. One thing Lucas was absolutely right on? Was keeping Jedi powers muted. Again, these were supposed to be knights, not super heroes. And yeah, knights on a battle field were a big deal; they were feared, hard to kill and very deadly. But they weren't armies, and they weren't gods. It was the fans who really power creeped the Jedi (And the EU writers)...They made them much stronger and "heroic" than they were supposed to be...When really, some highly trained dude like Fett should give one a run for their money by relying on technology (Like a fight between a knight and a really skilled mercenary)...But to the fans? Even stating it isn't a completely lop sided fight is sacrilege, which is dumb.

well, also part of it is that we aren't following the perspective of the average group of people. we are following the perspective of the top heroes and villains of their time. luke isn't just some low skilled jedi wannabe. even before he was trained he was subtly leaning on the force by killing those wamprats when he was a kid. han isn't just some random no-name smuggler... he's likely one of the best smugglers in his lifetime. so when you look at characters like aurra sing who are bounty hunters that collect lightsabers, things start to change a little.

the "average" jedi was just someone who was trained to use the force under the jedi code. that didn't make them great warriors by any stretch of the imagination. i mean half the jedi order were diplomats and librarians. think about it this way... in the battle of geonosis... how many jedi there could we actually name? i don't know, probably a dozen? there were several hundred there and we only care about a couple handful of them. out of ALL the jedi for jango fett to run into on kamino, it ends up being 1 of probably 6 that would be a challenge for him. that's just terrible odds.

the mass amounts of absolutely worthless jedi during the clone wars was exactly why darth bane instated the rule of two. if some random dark jedi picked a fight with han or chewie, i have no doubt in my mind who would win.

Agraza · Aug 23, 2015

My favorite element was always that your access to the force was constrained by your intent for using it. It puts huge boundaries around what you can actually achieve. That's why the order only wanted to train kids, so that they could control the psychology of those with access to greater power. Obi-Wan never should have trained Anakin. Qui-Gon may have still failed to make a true jedi of Anakin, but Obi-Wan never had a chance.

j00t · Aug 23, 2015

Lithose_sl said:
Oh, and about the realism of how fights looked (From earlier in the thread)...Honestly, the most realistic fights are when Dooku isn't being CGI'd. How Christopher Lee moved with his saber, using a pistol grip? Is probably how someone would look with such an ultra deadly weapon (The fights were silly, but Lee was good). It's why fencing evolved to use the Pistol grip; because when all that's needed is a touch of the blade, having a grip like that allows for more control and more precise movements.

The whole concept of using two hands for a weapon that can cut through anything without using real strength? Is always silly from a 'realism" perspective. Lee though used his fencing, which grew from the type of combat that probably would have arisen from such deadly "one hit" weapons (IE street duels with very light foils/rapiers). Without armor, and a blade that could use gravity to melt through someone? Any weapon meant to enhance the strength of a blow (like two hands or even some pole arms?) would be useless.

In any case, yeah, the Obi-Wan vs Vader New Hope fight, where they dance around, clash briefly and quickly slide away? Most likely how fights would look, given how deadly the weapons are...The only difference is it would be one handed.

from a technical standpoint, the fights looked like that because the sabers that the actors used were heavy. a few times you see vader using one hand, but that's because the actor was physically stronger than mark hamill and he was able to pull it off. Whether it was to cover that up or not, lucas also had the idea that lightsabers took a lot of concentration to use in combat and using 2 hands afforded that extra bit of control that was needed.

Agraza · Aug 23, 2015

Concentration? That could only be said by someone that never used a melee weapon. If they're actually going to fight someone to the death with those things then their posture and footwork had better be muscle memory before they flip it on. There is no time to concentrate. You have to be entirely in the moment. Chances are good that in less than 5 seconds one of the two will be cut in multiple pieces. People make mistakes constantly in melee combat of any kind, and lightsaber damage is so severe you wouldn't have much chance to recover.

Famm · Aug 23, 2015

Lithose_sl said:
The whole concept of using two hands for a weapon that can cut through anything without using real strength? Is always silly from a 'realism" perspective. Lee though used his fencing, which grew from the type of combat that probably would have arisen from such deadly "one hit" weapons (IE street duels with very light foils/rapiers). Without armor, and a blade that could use gravity to melt through someone? Any weapon meant to enhance the strength of a blow (like two hands or even some pole arms?) would be useless.

Not to mention I'd assume a lightsaber to be relatively weightless compared to like a samurai sword, much less some two handed medieval weapon. So yeah, more like fencing kinda.

Agraza_sl said:
Chances are good that in less than 5 seconds one of the two will be cut in multiple pieces. People make mistakes constantly in melee combat of any kind, and lightsaber damage is so severe you wouldn't have much chance to recover.

Gavinmad · Aug 23, 2015

Agraza_sl said:
Concentration? That could only be said by someone that never used a melee weapon. If they're actually going to fight someone to the death with those things then their posture and footwork had better be muscle memory before they flip it on. There is no time to concentrate. You have to be entirely in the moment. Chances are good that in less than 5 seconds one of the two will be cut in multiple pieces. People make mistakes constantly in melee combat of any kind, and lightsaber damage is so severe you wouldn't have much chance to recover.

those people don't have the force

Faltigoth · Aug 23, 2015

Famm_sl said:
Not to mention I'd assume a lightsaber to be relatively weightless compared to like a samurai sword, much less some two handed medieval weapon. So yeah, more like fencing kinda.

I believe that is correct; I remember reading somewhere, one of the EU novels I am guessing, that one of the major difficulties with wielding lightsabers was that they had no weight, making them very dangerous to an unskilled user.

Agraza · Aug 23, 2015

Gavinmad_sl said:
those people don't have the force

Force users make mistakes. Sadly the swordfights in star wars are almost entirely silly. If you had the force the fight would be much more about trying to influence the environment or tools available to your opponent while you fight. Generally they do this only as an alternative to fighting with a sword. Only Yoda in his fight against Palpatine is ever shown actually doing both. It's all one form to Yoda, but despite being more capable than Palpatine he was already outplayed before the fight began and he inevitably has to escape the capital. I suspect the limits of CGI rendering are more to blame than imagination for a lack of more transcendent fight sequences.

I'd like to see some cool professional lightsaber battles that end promptly rather than the peacock taunting sessions we mostly got in the prequels.

j00t · Aug 23, 2015

apparently, there's some oscillation going on in a lightsaber that pretty drastically affects aim. i feel like i read that in wookiepedia so it's totally true. also, when i said concentration, i was referring to the force. although, having been in several fights with melee weapons, yeah, you fricken better be concentrating. muscle memory definitely plays a big role, but there are a ton of subtle cues from your opponent that you'll miss if you aren't concentrating.

but as far as star wars goes, we all know that lucas had a hard on for samurai and when they fight, they use two hands. that's basically it. i think they even trained in kendo?

Gavinmad · Aug 23, 2015

What Agraza fails to understand is that all the best Jedi are specced into Blade Grasp, which is why they are so difficult to hit and why they wield their sword in two hands.

The Edge · Aug 23, 2015

Lithose_sl said:
That being said, the whole indulgence of "super Jedi" makes it less plausible. One thing Lucas was absolutely right on? Was keeping Jedi powers muted. Again, these were supposed to be knights, not super heroes. And yeah, knights on a battle field were a big deal; they were feared, hard to kill and very deadly. But they weren't armies, and they weren't gods. It was the fans who really power creeped the Jedi (And the EU writers)...They made them much stronger and "heroic" than they were supposed to be...When really, some highly trained dude like Fett should give one a run for their money by relying on technology (Like a fight between a knight and a really skilled mercenary)...But to the fans? Even stating it isn't a completely lop sided fight is sacrilege, which is dumb.

That's pretty much what happened here. Without their weapons (even with in some aspects), it's an even fight.

Palum · Aug 23, 2015

Why wouldn't at least the sith use blasters. You'd figure they'd be deadly accurate and they probably don't care about being 'civilized'. They could just aimbot/maphack all day long.

Khalan · Aug 23, 2015

that fight was so bad. LOL @ the ship shooting Obi-Wan and he basically gets thrown back.

Gavinmad · Aug 23, 2015

Khalan_sl said:
that fight was so bad. LOL @ the ship shooting Obi-Wan and he basically gets thrown back.

Dude that's standard in basically everything. Big heavy gun shoots at the hero, but luckily hits the ground in front of him instead of hitting him directly.

ohkcrlho · Aug 24, 2015

Khalan_sl said:
that fight was so bad. LOL @ the ship shooting Obi-Wan and he basically gets thrown back.

It's not only that, the rest is so silly....so bad....so CGI
And there is an explanation for that ship not being able to shoot anything

1:46

Draegan_sl · Aug 24, 2015

Well I can see using two hands with a light saber. You are still projecting weight with it. In rotj Luke was bashing the shit out of Vader with his. Two hands might be needed for balance, control and strength.

Star Wars: The Force Awakens (2015)

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