Student Loans and the SAVE plan
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Tuco
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Is there any part of this that tries to make the groups that profit from debt partially culpable to forgiven debt?
For example, if some 17 year old kid gets signed up to $80,000 debt with a 4 year plan at a University, graduates with a 2.8 GPA in dance, then goes through the SAVE plan, does that university have to pay anything?
I've long viewed universities as predatory, taking advantage of kids who don't know better and saddling them with debt for degrees that aren't useful. Them inflating their coffers from this and then getting the government to pay down the debt they created from their prey just to continue the cycle bothers me. A lot.
For example, if some 17 year old kid gets signed up to $80,000 debt with a 4 year plan at a University, graduates with a 2.8 GPA in dance, then goes through the SAVE plan, does that university have to pay anything?
I've long viewed universities as predatory, taking advantage of kids who don't know better and saddling them with debt for degrees that aren't useful. Them inflating their coffers from this and then getting the government to pay down the debt they created from their prey just to continue the cycle bothers me. A lot.
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Sanrith Descartes
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There is a calculator that takes 2 seconds to figure out what your new payment will be.
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Sanrith Descartes
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Aldarion
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Kids? We're talking about adults who sign legally binding contracts.
I don't disagree with your characterization of the universities' role in this. But lets be honest about the "victims" here.
If that same young adult gets saddled with debt from other stupid decisions, like buying a new car and making monthly payments, how strongly do you feel about making the car dealership also pay? How about if that young person makes a stupid decision to buy a house at wildly inflated prices in the city/suburbs. Should the real estate agent be on the hook?
Some people around here just have a chip on their shoulders about universities for some reason.
These adults with dance and basketweaving degrees shouldnt be getting their loans forgiven, but it wasnt the universities fault these adults signed up for a really dumb idea. Every business tries to get you to buy their product. If you do, its not the business's fault.
TJT
Mr. Poopybutthole
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Well to the university system what you come to study for is completely irrelevant as tuition is independent of what you're studying.
Until that changes and we move away from the outdated Victorian university system we currently employ it will just get worse. This plan will do absolutely nothing to change the relationship between university and students in terms of money.
TJT
Mr. Poopybutthole
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Sure, but public institutions are meant for the public good and they are just as predatory. Additionally private universities are able to access federally subsidized loans themselves so you have a whole industry that is financially incentivized to cater to the lowest common denominator. Thus more basket weaving and other retarded shit.
Tuco
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I doubt you and I disagree from a high level about how much responsibility an adult should have to caveat emptor for all products they buy, but I think there are some distinct points around student loans that are important differentiators:
- Minors often get student loans Can a 17-Year-Old Get a Student Loan? | LendEDU
- Even before getting the student loans, many minors plan make plans to get loans for university
- The entire education system is biased toward treating student loans and university purchases as a solid investment for the future, and all through school kids are trained to accept loans, even if it means out of state tuition costs, university housing and all kinds of extra expenses. Most people are encouraged to go to college by their family, and you have an entire institution pushing that social agenda of more education is good
- Car dealerships (who finance internally, or the financial institutions they work with) are already culpable for the debt that a person takes on for a car. If they have to repo the car, settle debt, go to court etc they likely accept a significant loss compared to the buyer paying the debt in time. The same can be said for financial institutions that loan $ for home mortgages. Student loans are granted significant protections against loss, plaguing our dance degree graduate for decades and all backed by your tax dollar.
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Tuco
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btw, a couple points of bias I should disclose:
- As a STEM graduate I think shit-tier degrees and the entire institution around ineffective training are parasites on universities and the more responsibility that's brought to universities the more motivated they will be to expunge that plague.
- I get pissed seeing statistics about "more education is good" because I'm paid enough to raise the average, just so the future generation of STEM majors have to do the waste of time general education I did, and another generation of students are encouraged to get dance degrees because hey, it worked for me right?
- I've only got some 9 years before my oldest kid starts looking at universities, the sooner the entire institution implodes and is remade the better
Aldarion
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Fair point on the 17 year olds. Didnt realize that cause I didnt get mine til 18.
Not sure I can agree on the socialization being a difference. People are socialized into all kinds of purchases. Socialization is the reason people buy new cars instead of functionally equivelent used cars. Socialization is the reason people decide to live in absurd cost of living areas. Although I'll grant you that there is more "official" or insitutional socialization toward college than new cars (e.g. high school counselors don't universally push people to new cars like they do to college).
Interesting point about car dealerships sharing some responsibility. I suppose this all comes down to whether the debt can be discharged through bankruptcy, right? I'd be on board with letting student loans go in bankruptcy, with an accompanying tightening of loans based on degree programs.
Not sure I can agree on the socialization being a difference. People are socialized into all kinds of purchases. Socialization is the reason people buy new cars instead of functionally equivelent used cars. Socialization is the reason people decide to live in absurd cost of living areas. Although I'll grant you that there is more "official" or insitutional socialization toward college than new cars (e.g. high school counselors don't universally push people to new cars like they do to college).
Interesting point about car dealerships sharing some responsibility. I suppose this all comes down to whether the debt can be discharged through bankruptcy, right? I'd be on board with letting student loans go in bankruptcy, with an accompanying tightening of loans based on degree programs.
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TJT
Mr. Poopybutthole
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There is insitutional socialization towards college than there is any other career path or post high-school path. That was true when I was in school (2005 HS graduate) and was true for all of my younger sisters. With the last one graduating high school in 2011.
I doubt any of that has changed much.
I doubt any of that has changed much.
Tuco
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Historically there's a whole other thing you have to go through to drop student loans via bankruptcy, called adversary proceeding. https://studentaid.gov/manage-loans/forgiveness-cancellation/bankruptcy
I've never looked into this seriously, only to argue on the internet. I only accrued 14k of student debt back in 2008ish and the first 8.5% interest payment on it chapped my ass so bad I paid it off immediately.
The Biden SAVE plan changes the adversary proceeding system, but I'm not sure.
The problem with allowing student loans to dissolve from bankrupcty is that it's the tax payer funding it even harder, while universities just keep selling these bullshit degrees.
Sanrith Descartes
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I can say from semi-recent first hand experience (anecdotal evidence) that during the required meeting to discuss student loans (it is required before you can submit the Application) the instructor did his level best to dissuade everyone from getting a student loan. He literally told everyone to not to take a loan and to get a part time job if that's what it took or to go part-time as a student and work full-time if it meant not taking a loan.
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Tuco
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How much did the instructor (Who I'm guessing was acting as an student advisor/counselor or something?) try to dissuade on-campus living, out of state tuition and extra-curriculars that often inflate student loan debt (either directly or indirectly by encouraging students to take on a maximum student loan debt for tuition in order to pay for extra-curriculars)?
And how much did the instructors encourage students to go to a community college for a couple years to bang out the lower classes for cheap before matriculating to a university?
Mist
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The flipside is that all those shitty degrees heavily subsidize the extremely expensive STEM programs. But the government could easily just subsidize them more directly.
That said, everyone that says "the waste of time general education" is usually an idiot. Almost all of those are general education requirements are to improve your communications skills and ability to work with other people. Having met engineers with neither skill, they don't generally contribute nearly as much to the success of their overall organizations as they do in their own minds. Companies are not driven forward by lone geniuses quietly doing their work, even though the autists want that to be true. From the outside, those people are seen as weirdo creeps who don't document their work and are more concerned about making themselves look valuable by siloing important information in their heads instead of contributing knowledge and mentoring people. If you ever find yourself thinking "if I write down and effectively communicate what I know, my employer will fire me" then you're probably part of the problem.
Sanrith Descartes
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I didn't the cheapest way possible. Community college for my AA at $100 a credit. I learned about the scholarship game and applied for every merit only based scholarship (I had a 4.0 GPA). Ended up with a 50% ride scholarship to any Fla State University. University tuition was $200 a credit in-state. if you exclude the scholarships I won, the entire cost of my BS in quant econ was just under $20k (7k for the AA and about $13 for the BS).I also clepped some basic classes fod about $100 a test.
Granted I was not living in school for the "college experience".
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Tuco
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Sanrith Descartes
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The students were already enrolled at the university so that eliminated some of it. He did mention being able to take basic 100 and 200 level classes at community college while attending the University. Also spent a lot of time explaining interest.
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Tuco
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Me and my sister did the same community college strat, although to finish off our high school. Her kids are doing the same thing.
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Sanrith Descartes
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A lot of it is tied to research grants the various departments bring it. Stem bring in a lot, gender studies not so much.