Student Loans and the SAVE plan

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TheBeagle

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Even STEM and healthcare is a mixed bag. A biology B.S. is basically useless without further education (the running joke is that the janitors in biology labs are people with bachelor's degrees). Not really sure what "pure" chemistry or physics degrees would be able get employment-wise, either (chem engineering being the exception and one of the few super-lucrative degrees where only a bachelor's is needed, but in my experience chem eng and chemistry are two different degrees).

Nursing, yes, you'll always have a job if you work clinical nursing, but it's a high-stress job that is figuratively and literally shitty. You can enter administration like myself, but once you make the decision to go administration track, you are railroaded into non-clinical for the rest of your career and open yourself up to more job insecurity than a clinical nurse. Nurse practitioner is a good job on paper, but it's a highly saturated field due to diploma mills (unless you want to move to Bumfuck, Nowhere). My sister is a speech pathologist, which was one of the "hot" degrees 5-10 years back, and all she's been able to find are part-time positions despite her getting out of her master's program with a 3.9 GPA.
This is so true. Got my BS in Bio as a non trad student and spent a couple years floating around doing field work in fisheries. It was amazing work but it didn't pay shit and since I was too old to live in poverty for a few years until I could score a permanent gig at a field office my options were go get a graduate degree or go back to the real world. Now I'm building swimming pools, haha.
 
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Tuco

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Performing arts programs are extremely expensive per-student due to the fixed costs and relatively low enrollment rates. But the flipside is that those facilities are generally used for other things that improve student life in general.

But social sciences, communications, and similar degrees, which make up the bulk of undergrads, definitely help pay for the more expensive degrees.
I read this article, got confused and lost interest.


I'm going to concede the point via apathy and agree with you that if a dept or degree is highly valued but competing with teachers of that subject is expensive because those teachers are actually valuable outside of college, it should be subsidized in some other way than bilking students with tuition cost that doesn't scale with the value of their degree or classes taught.
 

Sanrith Descartes

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Business students should be forced to work in an actual business fulltime for at least 3 years before going to business school. :) You'd get a lot less dumb ideas entering business, from either side.

Plus, most of the real lessons of business school are likely lost on kids who haven't ever worked in one.
One of the core things you learn in business school is how to use MS Office. Few things make me rage more than speaking to someone in business who can't use Excel.

Also, getting a degree in Finance or Econ (the real one, not the fake one AOC has) shows you can do some math. Marketing or Management is a whole other animal entirely.
 

Sanrith Descartes

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Everyone should work low-end jobs for a couple years before higher education, if only so that they're inspired to get and keep their shit together. College would be a lot better if the students had some actual life experience.
This is what being a teenager was when I was younger. We got our work papers the day we turned 14. A good half a decade of shitty fast food/retail jobs before graduating high school.
 
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TheBeagle

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I read this article, got confused and lost interest.


I'm going to concede the point via apathy and agree with you that if a dept or degree is highly valued but competing with teachers of that subject is expensive because those teachers are actually valuable outside of college, it should be subsidized in some other way than bilking students with tuition cost that doesn't scale with the value of their degree or classes taught.
When you did your undergrad did you not have a mentor with a lab of some sort that you could volunteer and get some experience in? I always thought you were some sort of engineer type that would have had helped out on various projects.

When I did mine I had two labs I worked in. One in Montana under the U of M that I worked at during the summers under a research grant from the NSF. I saw firsthand how the sausage is made in terms of money.

The other one was at my home university back in Texas. My mentor there at UNT did lots of work with aquatic insects. His lab had contracts with a few cities to sample and monitor mosquitoes for West Nile. We also got a contract with DFW airport to go sample all the various creeks and drainages to see what the environmental impact of the de-icing chems/fuel runoff was. Taking a look at what the aquatic insects populations are can give you a good idea to the overall health of those streams and it's easy to do.Anyway, both of those contracts allowed him to pay those of us working on them an hourly wage. My mentor was a grant getting machine, always had at least a half dozen going at any time. Those projects brought in tens of thousands of dollars but UNT would take 47% right off the top before it even got to our lab. This is the case at every University in the US. The % might differ but the process is the same. Gender studies don't fund STEM programs.
 

Sanrith Descartes

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Even STEM and healthcare is a mixed bag. A biology B.S. is basically useless without further education (the running joke is that the janitors in biology labs are people with bachelor's degrees). Not really sure what "pure" chemistry or physics degrees would be able get employment-wise, either (chem engineering being the exception and one of the few super-lucrative degrees where only a bachelor's is needed, but in my experience chem eng and chemistry are two different degrees).

Nursing, yes, you'll always have a job if you work clinical nursing, but it's a high-stress job that is figuratively and literally shitty. You can enter administration like myself, but once you make the decision to go administration track, you are railroaded into non-clinical for the rest of your career and open yourself up to more job insecurity than a clinical nurse. Nurse practitioner is a good job on paper, but it's a highly saturated field due to diploma mills (unless you want to move to Bumfuck, Nowhere). My sister is a speech pathologist, which was one of the "hot" degrees 5-10 years back, and all she's been able to find are part-time positions despite her getting out of her master's program with a 3.9 GPA.
Health care and accounting are two of the few degree tracts that should lead to gainful employment for decades. It's really hard to replace either with AI and we are getting older than shit every day.
 

Sanrith Descartes

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The kicker is /program/ on this. I worked for a state college for neigh 20 years.

You can go from the state college (community college) and go to the university, they will accept you - /but/ the programs do not have to. So if you are trying to get into a competitive program, it is not a good path- nor a path you would take anywho if your a student and really should be going into the elite programs. But yes, for any normal degree, paying 2-3x to sit in UF/FSU/UCF/USF's giant lecture halls vs their regional state college is dumb, you can still "live the college life" for those two years if you really wanted.
The kids looking to get into competitive programs probably aren't majoring in gender studies. They are the folks college was designed for.
 

Sanrith Descartes

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Yep. Every professor at my school in the Biological scienceshad varying numbers of research grants for their labs. I also know the Physics and Chem profs did the same. If you don't bring in grants you don't stay at the university. The idea that fag degrees were subsidizing our labs is the most nonsensical thing I've read this week. It's actually the other way around since Universities take their 47% cut off of any and all research grants the PI's bring in.
Publish or die used to be the mantra.
 

Sanrith Descartes

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This is so true. Got my BS in Bio as a non trad student and spent a couple years floating around doing field work in fisheries. It was amazing work but it didn't pay shit and since I was too old to live in poverty for a few years until I could score a permanent gig at a field office my options were go get a graduate degree or go back to the real world. Now I'm building swimming pools, haha.
From biology degree to building swimming pools. That is so America right now.
 

Captain Suave

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This is what being a teenager was when I was younger. We got our work papers the day we turned 14. A good half a decade of shitty fast food/retail jobs before graduating high school.
Me too, but it's a different experience if you're doing it to pay rent vs movie tickets and beer.
 
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Sanrith Descartes

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You can do that in under 60 hours at community college. There's no way that's a core skill of being a business major at a 4-year university.
It is actually. It's part of the pre-business core. They give it a fancy name, but it's how to use Excel and PowerPoint.
 

Mist

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Yep. Every professor at my school in the Biological scienceshad varying numbers of research grants for their labs. I also know the Physics and Chem profs did the same. If you don't bring in grants you don't stay at the university. The idea that fag degrees were subsidizing our labs is the most nonsensical thing I've read this week. It's actually the other way around since Universities take their 47% cut off of any and all research grants the PI's bring in.
Those research grants bring in revenue that fund and grow the research programs, and therefore grow the standing of the department vs other competitive research organizations, but they don't actually fund the undergraduate education in that department. In fact, grant money is heavily regulated and accounted to make sure it's paying specifically for what the grant is written for and not being spent on other things.

It's amazing what you people think you know.
 
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Mist

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It is actually. It's part of the pre-business core. They give it a fancy name, but it's how to use Excel and PowerPoint.
So you literally just told me it's a pre-requisite to get into the program, not a core part of the program.

Those pre-requisites can all be done at community college.

Thanks for agreeing with me.
 
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Tuco

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When you did your undergrad did you not have a mentor with a lab of some sort that you could volunteer and get some experience in? I always thought you were some sort of engineer type that would have had helped out on various projects.
Hm, not really. As a computer science major I did my first two years at a community college and worked as a computer lab bitch. I went from that to an degree-relevant internship at an automotive engineering place and did that for the rest of my college. I didn't bother working at my school.
 

Sanrith Descartes

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This was a great study. I used it to tell my students why their degrees were crap.

It's stupidly long but pretty easy to swallow.

Tldr: #1 degree outta college Petro chem engineering (like $160k salary)

Worst - a bunch of shit degrees like social work around $35k salary

 
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TJT

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Even STEM and healthcare is a mixed bag. A biology B.S. is basically useless without further education (the running joke is that the janitors in biology labs are people with bachelor's degrees). Not really sure what "pure" chemistry or physics degrees would be able get employment-wise, either (chem engineering being the exception and one of the few super-lucrative degrees where only a bachelor's is needed, but in my experience chem eng and chemistry are two different degrees).

Nursing, yes, you'll always have a job if you work clinical nursing, but it's a high-stress job that is figuratively and literally shitty. You can enter administration like myself, but once you make the decision to go administration track, you are railroaded into non-clinical for the rest of your career and open yourself up to more job insecurity than a clinical nurse. Nurse practitioner is a good job on paper, but it's a highly saturated field due to diploma mills (unless you want to move to Bumfuck, Nowhere). My sister is a speech pathologist, which was one of the "hot" degrees 5-10 years back, and all she's been able to find are part-time positions despite her getting out of her master's program with a 3.9 GPA.

Chemistry undergrad is also worthless. As if you want to work in academia or a research lab or some shit you need a masters at minimum. Physics is the same way. One of my friends in university had a chemistry undergrad, realized it was worthless, then spent another 1.5 years getting a Chemical Engineering undergrad. Chemical engineering is money right out of the gate as you can go work at big chemical companies. Which is exactly what he did.

I've met a lot of physics guys coding away with me in the tech industry.
 
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Captain Suave

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I've met a lot of physics guys coding away with me in the tech industry.

Physics is basically just applied math, and both have a ton of skills overlap with computing. My wife has a physics BA and MS and currently runs a data science department. No one classifies that as some kind of failure mode of the degrees.
 

TJT

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Physics is basically just applied math, and both have a ton of skills overlap with computing. My wife has a physics BA/MS and runs a data science department. No one classifies that as some kind of failure mode of the degrees.
I mean failure like you wanted a physics degree so you could work as a physicist researching quantum mechanics or whatever. Not that you wouldn't have a career. Or a chemistry one so you could sit around in a chemistry lab playing with vials.