The D&D thread
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Guest, it's time once again for the massively important and exciting FoH Asshat Tournament!
Go here and give us your nominations!Who's been the biggest Asshat in the last year? Give us your worst ones!
Grabbit Allworth
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Yep, I've downloaded so much stuff from the Trove it's ridiculous. I even have entire rulesets for games I've never played 'just in case.'
And I 3rd, 5e tools being great.
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Dashel
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Are there objective numbers for DnD similar to DPS or heal per second or whatever else. I'm just curious if it goes to that level of min/maxing. If you wanted to compare two weapons to each other to see which is better, or dual wielding vs a great weapon.
Indyocracy
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The short answer is yes, an example for healing is something like this
The DnD 5e Healbot Olympics - RPGBOT
In this competition (for lack of a better word) we'll be examining available classes and subclasses to assess them for their ability to heal their party members in order to judge which class makes the best Healbot.
rpgbot.net
The easiest way to compare weapons is just think about average dice roll. So a GreatAx is a d12 so 1-12 with an average of 6.5 compared to a Greatsword 2-12 with an average of 7.
GreatAx is much better for crits though because of the extra dice, 1d12 is better then 1d6 so Orcs and Barbarians may prefer that.
Dual wielding vs great weapon is more about what is your goal. Some martial classes have access to the Dueling fighting style which adds +2 dmg when using a single 1-handed weapon, which is about as good as using a great weapon(1d8+2 average is 6 same as Greatax worse crits though) and you can get +2ac from a shield. Duel wield loses a shield and has to use a fighting style to gain ability mod damage to offhand to come close keeping up with great weapon damage. Great weapons gain a lot by taking a feat Great Weapon Master which loses them an ability score increase but gains them the biggest damage increase by far but then you need ways to gain advantage to negate the -5 to hit.
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Grabbit Allworth
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I'm sure there's an autist somewhere that has done exactly that with a spreadsheet, but generally speaking, no "DPS" isn't a thing.
That said, min/maxing is still definitely common, but it's mostly ensuring that the benefits a character gets from ability scores, class, sub-class, race, background, feats, etc aren't redundant and/or support what the player wants the character to do.
The weapon system (and basic armor/gear in general) in 5e is definitely lackluster. Weapons are really only differentiated by their damage die. For example - a dagger deals 1d4 damage while a longsword deals 1d8 and a 2-handed greatsword does 2d6. As Indy said, players are really only concerned with average damage per hit and that's obviously higher the larger the damage die.
Weapon Proficiency granted by race/class and choosing between 1-handed or 2-handed weapons are honestly the only real factors when min/maxers choose weapons. They'll almost always default to the 'best' they can wield and there's no downside. The gold cost of starting weapons is nominal, with all the best (non-magical) weapons of normal material/craftmanship being in reach upon character creation.
Apart from a few property tags (like the weapon being Light or Finesse), there's little difference between weapons beyond their damage die and some weapons get completely left in the cold because given how homogenous weapons are, there are clearly a set of weapons in each class (martial, basic, exotic, etc) that are considered the 'best.' Players will often choose whatever the 'best' weapon their character is able to wield.
To illustrate how boring and generic D&D weapons are; a Longsword, Mace, and Battle Axe are all EXACTLY the same weapon, but with different names and of course the Mace deals blunt damage (inconsequential 95% of the time).
Non-magical gear in D&D is truly uninteresting and it's something I heavily tackle with homebrew rules.
Consider the dagger from before; most players never use them because they are objectively inferior to almost every other option. So, I try to make them attractive by adding several properties that make them more useful. In my game, every dagger has the Concealable (gets advantage on checks to hide it from searches), Compact (suffer no penalty when used while prone, grappled, under water, or in tight spaces) and Consistent (wounds dealt by this weapon are relatively consistent and receive +1 to damage) properties.
I've given the same treatment to all weapons. I've even given a few of them slightly negative properties and EVERY weapon (and armor set) has a minimum strength to use effectively. Nearly anyone can wield a dagger, but a much smaller percentage of characters have the strength to heft a huge 2-handed sword.
I try to make choosing a weapon something players have to actually think about. Same with armor.
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Dashel
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Ok thanks to both. I agree. I am seeing it is very generic to start, I'm guessing by design. It does keep things a bit more predictable and easier to design an encounter I guess. It's just a challenge to keep giving the party interesting items. It's normal weapons until they find their first magic weapon.
I'm trying to give some guidance to players for a new short adventure. It's unsatisfying to say the stuff is all pretty generic to start. But it does leave room for growth I suppose.
I'm trying to give some guidance to players for a new short adventure. It's unsatisfying to say the stuff is all pretty generic to start. But it does leave room for growth I suppose.
Indyocracy
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So to expand on your request a lvl 1 fighter with a fighting style to maximize efficiency with each option would have the following output.
Sword and Board 1d8+2+ ability mod damage; +2shield a.c. 1 attack average dmg 9 (typical a.c. 18)
Dual Weilder 1d8+ability mod, 1d6+ ability mod 2 attacks (1 consumes bonus action) this is a dex build, average dmg 13 (typical ac 16, can't dump str otherwise ac 14)
Great Weapon 1d12+ ability mod 1 attack average damage 9, +1 a.c. I use defensive style as I think rerolling the dmg dice is not impactful enough ac 17
Now do these calculations without fighting styles (I am assuming a 16 in primary stat)
Sword and Board average 7
Dual Wield average 10
Great Weapon 9
If you switched from the most min/maxed two weapon combo to a pair of daggers, average damage becomes 7 because most the damage comes for stats and class features not weapon
The lesson? Unless you take Great Weapon Master which lets you trade -5 to hit for +10 to damage, use what seems fun =).
Sword and Board 1d8+2+ ability mod damage; +2shield a.c. 1 attack average dmg 9 (typical a.c. 18)
Dual Weilder 1d8+ability mod, 1d6+ ability mod 2 attacks (1 consumes bonus action) this is a dex build, average dmg 13 (typical ac 16, can't dump str otherwise ac 14)
Great Weapon 1d12+ ability mod 1 attack average damage 9, +1 a.c. I use defensive style as I think rerolling the dmg dice is not impactful enough ac 17
Now do these calculations without fighting styles (I am assuming a 16 in primary stat)
Sword and Board average 7
Dual Wield average 10
Great Weapon 9
If you switched from the most min/maxed two weapon combo to a pair of daggers, average damage becomes 7 because most the damage comes for stats and class features not weapon
The lesson? Unless you take Great Weapon Master which lets you trade -5 to hit for +10 to damage, use what seems fun =).
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j00t
Silver Baronet of the Realm
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When it comes between dual wielding and 2 handers, generally the rule is that in the early game dual wielding will outperform, midgame they equalize, and end game 2handers do better.
The biggest reasons are A) when dual wielding, it takes a bonus action to get full use of your attacks and you only ever get one attack with an offhand bonus action, so it doesn't scale like extra attack does. And B) there's no one handed version of great weapon master. Early on a -5 to hit is a huge deal and will hardly ever be used but once you get to lvl 10 or so, you can start strategicly using it on low armored creatures for the extra 10 damage per hit.
The biggest reasons are A) when dual wielding, it takes a bonus action to get full use of your attacks and you only ever get one attack with an offhand bonus action, so it doesn't scale like extra attack does. And B) there's no one handed version of great weapon master. Early on a -5 to hit is a huge deal and will hardly ever be used but once you get to lvl 10 or so, you can start strategicly using it on low armored creatures for the extra 10 damage per hit.
Grabbit Allworth
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No single-weapon equivalent aside, GWM is a dumb feat.
At my table, GWM is -PB to attack and 2x PB to damage. In other words, it's -2/+4 at low levels and -6/+12 at the top echelon.
Sevens
Log Wizard
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Damn, I wish you were my DM. In fact I wish I had a DM now. After moving to bum fucked Kansas there is no one here that even plays.
Tried Fantasy grounds and the one game I did find was just horrid.
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Seananigans
Honorary Shit-PhD
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Grabbit Allworth
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A few of us from FoH just started a brand new campaign on Fantasy Grounds Unity a few weeks ago (everyone is still level 1) and we have room for another. If you're interested, let me know or PM Seananigans for Discord access and we can talk about.
We were playing on Thursdays, but given we plan to add another player (possibly two, if they're a good fit) that day is very likely to change to another day during the week.
Fair warning, I've got a lot of experience as a table-top DM, but this is literally my first experience using FG as a DM and there's definitely a learning curve, but I've been investing an embarrassing amount of time and effort familiarizing myself with it so I'll be up to speed in short order.
Our sessions definitely aren't terrible; they're mechanically sound, but until I'm not spending such an incredible amount of mental energy just focusing on which buttons to press, etc....the speed of the game is going to be a bit slower than ALL of us would like and the narration/roleplay situations aren't go to be as fluid/natural, BUT it's a short-term thing.
I take DM'ing very, very seriously. I spend a lot of time prepping and trying to craft an enjoyable table. Hell, in the last week I've purchased, installed, and begun setting up nearly 80 mods/extensions to improve the quality of life/functionality of FG. Including layering in Syrinscape for mood, sound effects, and background music.
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Sevens
Log Wizard
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Damn I would love to give this a whirl just let me know when and where (my days are free 7 days a week from sun up to sun down)
Arden
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Dashel
Blackwing Lair Raider
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I like Foundry a lot. Browser based, modern, tons of potential and they have most of it figured out now. Early on it was a bit sparse with mods and content.
Its definitely better, it's just that Roll20 and FG have a ton of content and mods and everything else just from being around a long time.
Music, sounds, environment, animated tokens, images, customization ... all of that is much easier with foundry. But FG and I would guess Roll 20 it was great having all the modules maps and monsters and loot pre set.
Its definitely better, it's just that Roll20 and FG have a ton of content and mods and everything else just from being around a long time.
Music, sounds, environment, animated tokens, images, customization ... all of that is much easier with foundry. But FG and I would guess Roll 20 it was great having all the modules maps and monsters and loot pre set.
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Grabbit Allworth
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No experience with any VTT but FGC and FGU, but I have looked at others and compared their functionality. It seems like FG has the most options and content integration, but with all of those features and under-the-hood automation comes a pretty steep learning curve with a considerable amount of set-up. Though, to be fair, once you get things 'right,' it's good to go.
That said, you can definitely play using FG without all the bells and whistles and still have a great time but you'll invariably end up forgetting to track/apply a ton of stuff and miss out on many of its excellent features. Though if don't realize you're missed something, I suppose it doesn't really matter.
The lighting, line of sight, and insane number of quality of life modifications available for FGU truly offer a fantastic experience....IF you can get over the initial hurdle. It doesn't take a coder to make sense of things, but if you're going to maximize the offerings, it's going to take a little bit of time and effort. Some of which will be infuriating because the problem will be so miniscule and seemingly easy to fix, but you can't nail it down.
Example - for the last three hours I've been trying to figure out why the level 1 Shield spell is populating in the spell list of a new player's Level 1 Firbolg Life Cleric as a cantrip. There is absolutely zero indication as to why that's happening.
**Edit** Goddamn, I finally figured it out. It's a bug with the gearing portion of the character wizard.
That said, you can definitely play using FG without all the bells and whistles and still have a great time but you'll invariably end up forgetting to track/apply a ton of stuff and miss out on many of its excellent features. Though if don't realize you're missed something, I suppose it doesn't really matter.
The lighting, line of sight, and insane number of quality of life modifications available for FGU truly offer a fantastic experience....IF you can get over the initial hurdle. It doesn't take a coder to make sense of things, but if you're going to maximize the offerings, it's going to take a little bit of time and effort. Some of which will be infuriating because the problem will be so miniscule and seemingly easy to fix, but you can't nail it down.
Example - for the last three hours I've been trying to figure out why the level 1 Shield spell is populating in the spell list of a new player's Level 1 Firbolg Life Cleric as a cantrip. There is absolutely zero indication as to why that's happening.
**Edit** Goddamn, I finally figured it out. It's a bug with the gearing portion of the character wizard.
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Dashel
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Yes there is definitely a learning curve. A lot of swearing early on.... wtf why isn't this working? kind of thing. A bit of work and it's very easy once you're set up.
This is the year anniversary synopsis from Foundry, a ton you can do with it.
This is the year anniversary synopsis from Foundry, a ton you can do with it.
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Grabbit Allworth
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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To be perfectly frank, I didn't know Foundry had come quite that far. It looks quite good.