The Flash

Azrayne · Feb 13, 2016

Gavinmad_sl said:
So in other words you wouldn't like anything that ever involves the Flash.

Come on, it's hardly impossible to write about a hero with super-speed without getting bogged down into alternate timelines/dimensions.

I understand why all that stuff exists in the comics - to try and bring some sense of coherency to the piles of different reboots/retcons that build up over decades of trying to tell dozens of different stories in a serial format in the same setting. It's a necessary evil there. But with the new TV setting they had a chance to maintain a single fresh continuity, and instead they carried this craziness over from the comic books and it had the opposite effect of making things less coherent, not more, in addition to encouraging shitty storytelling.

Gavinmad · Feb 13, 2016

Tarrant_sl said:
I'm still not convinced Zoom is the main bad guy here. It was let on early right away he was the villain so if that's the case, it shows how far down hill the writing for this show has went.

lmao

Maester Chuk_sl said:
i dunno much about the Flash's canon, but isnt Zoom or Reverse Flash his greatest villains? here we have Zoom consolidating his speedforce powers by tapping other speedsters LF to become an all powerful god. he practically is in godmode right now. who the fuck is he answering to? at least in Arrow, Darhk is limited to his Enchanter class spells with limited manapool so there is a chance he answers to somebody. Zoom is literally using endgame Bard songs with all the mudflated devices including manastone. he is an unstoppable monster.
maybe when they introduce Trajectory in a few weeks, if Wally powers up and Garrick is injected with Velocity 9 they can collab with Barry to stop him.

*whoosh*

Anyway Trajectory is is one of the biggest nobodies in the history of DC. She's unquestionably the most insignificant and unimportant speedster to ever show up in the comics, she was a minor character that I believe was only around a couple weeks before being killed off. The most likely reason for CW to have picked her is because killing her off will make absolutely no difference. My guess is she's a pseudo-villain, Barry convinces her that heroing is better, and either Zoom casually kills her out of hand or she dies heroically. Either way, she'll be extremely lucky if she lasts more than one episode.

I suppose another possible reason to have picked Trajectory is that it's such a minor character that they could make whatever changes they want and nobody would care, so maybe there will be more to her, but I doubt it. She gonna die.

Azrayne_sl said:
Come on, it's hardly impossible to write about a hero with super-speed without getting bogged down into alternate timelines/dimensions.

I understand why all that stuff exists in the comics - to try and bring some sense of coherency to the piles of different reboots/retcons that build up over decades of trying to tell dozens of different stories in a serial format in the same setting. It's a necessary evil there. But with the new TV setting they had a chance to maintain a single fresh continuity, and instead they carried this craziness over from the comic books and it had the opposite effect of making things less coherent, not more, in addition to encouraging shitty storytelling.

In your opinion. Aside from Barry developing a spontaneous case of the stupids on Earth 2, I've been fine with all of it, and I LOVE picking apart tv shows.

Caliane · Feb 13, 2016

Azrayne_sl said:
Come on, it's hardly impossible to write about a hero with super-speed without getting bogged down into alternate timelines/dimensions.

I understand why all that stuff exists in the comics - to try and bring some sense of coherency to the piles of different reboots/retcons that build up over decades of trying to tell dozens of different stories in a serial format in the same setting. It's a necessary evil there. But with the new TV setting they had a chance to maintain a single fresh continuity, and instead they carried this craziness over from the comic books and it had the opposite effect of making things less coherent, not more, in addition to encouraging shitty storytelling.

yeah. I mean its like Superman. It is hard to write a superman movie or show without getting bogged down by other planets? Can't Superman be from the streets?

The multiverse is pretty core to The Flash.
As talked about earlier the thread. A Flash of Two Worlds introduced the idea of a Multiverse to comics.

And so is timetravel. Barry being the cause of his own getting of powers. Reverse Flash's all involve time travel, etc.

The only real problem is how they fucked up the season end with Eddie honestly. THAT used Back to the Future logic, which was kindof shit. The rest of the show was pretty set with predestination. "i know you are going to go to the past, because you already did it"

and yeah, said it before. Either E2 barry is going to go evil and become the Rival, totally justified. Or, they Effial tower Iris. Which I mean, its not cheating if its your alt universe self right?

Chukzombi · Feb 13, 2016

Tarrant_sl said:
I was mocking you and you took all the fun out of it. -sigh-

thats not very nice.

Azrayne · Feb 13, 2016

In your opinion.

Of course it's my opinion, I wrote it.

The multiverse is pretty core to The Flash.
As talked about earlier the thread. A Flash of Two Worlds introduced the idea of a Multiverse to comics.

And so is timetravel. Barry being the cause of his own getting of powers. Reverse Flash's all involve time travel, etc.

The only real problem is how they fucked up the season end with Eddie honestly. THAT used Back to the Future logic, which was kindof shit. The rest of the show was pretty set with predestination. "i know you are going to go to the past, because you already did it"

I dunno. I could get past the cheesiness of it literally being Flash with reversed colors (and the terrible name), and even having the whole buildup of Well's character ruined by a flashback revealing that Wells has been dead all this time and it's actually someone else who stole his appearance posing as him mentoring Barry, but then when we hit the end and it basically turns out "I hate you in the future so we're always enemies when we meet because reasons" as opposed to any realistic character conflict, I just kinda groaned. Then I hit S2 and suddenly it's another mirror-image Flash with even less realistic motive (every time they talk about how Zoom kills other speedsters because he wants to be the fastest, "I wanna be, the veeeery best...." from the Pokemon theme song starts playing in my head) or character development and an even worse name.

Here's the thing, I really liked the show when it was just Barry figuring out his cool new superpowers and the whole double-life thing while hanging with Wells/Cisco/whatsherface and going up against different villains, that was fun to watch and I think they could have easily ramped it up from there to create a realistic and interesting villain for S1, and maybe slowly eased into some of the more out there stuff in later seasons. But nope, they just go balls to the wall from the word go. Maybe it's an essential part of the character in the comics, but so was shit like retarded themed villains for Batman or those ridiculous yellow spandex suits for X-Men, which is why when they adapted those franchises for modern screen media they cut that it the hell out.

Let me guess, S3 is going to be Barry facing off againstSwoosh, his archenemy from the 51st century in abluegimp suit who can run 27.6x the speed of light and hates Barry because he was time travelling with his psychic pet dog from Jupiter, popped into the 21st century and Barry accidentally kicked his dog while running across the city to reject another hot, cool and intelligent woman so he can continue his weird semi-incestuous pining after Iris.

...ok I'm done.

Ambiturner · Feb 13, 2016

Azrayne_sl said:
Of course it's my opinion, I wrote it.

I dunno. I could get past the cheesiness of it literally being Flash with reversed colors (and the terrible name), and even having the whole buildup of Well's character ruined by a flashback revealing that Wells has been dead all this time and it's actually someone else who stole his appearance posing as him mentoring Barry, but then when we hit the end and it basically turns out "I hate you in the future so we're always enemies when we meet because reasons" as opposed to any realistic character conflict, I just kinda groaned. Then I hit S2 and suddenly it's another mirror-image Flash with even less realistic motive (every time they talk about how Zoom kills other speedsters because he wants to be the fastest, "I wanna be, the veeeery best...." from the Pokemon theme song starts playing in my head) or character development and an even worse name.

They didn't get too deep into why Reverse Flash hated Barry, but it's pretty obvious Reverse Flash is a villain from the future who thought he could defeat him by killing him as a kid. No idea what you're talking about with "I hate you in the future so we're always enemies when we meet because reasons" as opposed to any realistic character conflict".

They're still enemies for the exact same reason as in S1, they just screwed up with the timey wimey bs on why he even exists. Also, the Flash villain was introduced in the early 60s, so not sure why you're implying they stole it from Pokeman.

Azrayne_sl said:
Here's the thing, I really liked the show when it was just Barry figuring out his cool new superpowers and the whole ouble-life thing while hanging with Wells/Cisco/whatsherface and going up against different villains, that was fun to watch and I think they could have easily ramped it up from there to create a realistic and interesting villain for S1, and maybe slowly eased into some of the more out there stuff in later seasons. But nope, they just go balls to the wall from the word go. Maybe it's an essential part of the character in the comics, but so was shit like retarded themed villains for Batman or those ridiculous yellow spandex suits for X-Men, which is why when they adapted those franchises for modern screen media they cut that it the hell out.

Batman is a human so you can have more realistic villains. You're also comparing the modern franchise batman with 3 movies 23 episodes a season. You have to start digging unless you want a 3 villain rotation he fights over and over.

Azrayne_sl said:
Let me guess, S3 is going to be Barry facing off againstSwoosh, his archenemy from the 51st century in abluegimp suit who can run 27.6x the speed of light and hates Barry because he was time travelling with his psychic pet dog from Jupiter, popped into the 21st century and Barry accidentally kicked his dog while running across the city to reject another hot, cool and intelligent woman so he can continue his weird semi-incestuous pining after Iris.

I really don't see why you have a problem with the main villain being a stronger version of Barry. It builds up them up knowing Barry shouldn't stand a chance since he has no advantages over them. I mean there's a reason the Zooms have been his most popular enemies.

Chukzombi · Feb 13, 2016

Azrayne_sl said:
Of course it's my opinion, I wrote it.

I dunno. I could get past the cheesiness of it literally being Flash with reversed colors (and the terrible name), and even having the whole buildup of Well's character ruined by a flashback revealing that Wells has been dead all this time and it's actually someone else who stole his appearance posing as him mentoring Barry, but then when we hit the end and it basically turns out "I hate you in the future so we're always enemies when we meet because reasons" as opposed to any realistic character conflict, I just kinda groaned.

this needs to be corrected, RF did not steal wells's appearance. he stole his whole fucking body. what was left was just some skin and bones. Thawne as Wells wasnt just him pretending to be Wells. he was Wells. huge difference. the thawne part of wells was his purpose for mentoring barry and the others at star labs, but the actual mentoring itself was all wells.

Azrayne · Feb 13, 2016

They're still enemies for the exact same reason as in S1, they just screwed up with the timey wimey bs on why he even exists. Also, the Flash villain was introduced in the early 60s, so not sure why you're implying they stole it from Pokeman.

I wasn't, I was just saying "I wanna be the best! ...so I'm gonna murder dozens of people" is kind of lame as a sole motivating factor for a villain. Hell, it isn't even really a motivating factor, it's just psychopathy. How can you even have any character development at that point?

I really don't see why you have a problem with the main villain being a stronger version of Barry. It builds up them up knowing Barry shouldn't stand a chance since he has no advantages over them. I mean there's a reason the Zooms have been his most popular enemies.

It's boring, especially when done twice in a row. Why not a villain with a unique and interesting power set which counteracts Barry, instead of just "yeah he's the exact same but faster." The fact that visually speaking they're literal mirror images really doesn't help. But I could live with both of those if the villains had some kind of interesting and realistic character development giving them genuine and believable motivations for their actions. That's the real problem - shit made up over half a century ago for 12 year olds who had severely limited alternative entertainment options doesn't really hold up in modern television for adults.

If any random new series was so half assed with it's writing and character design, everyone would rip it to shreds, including you guys. I don't understand why it gets a pass here.

this needs to be corrected, RF did not steal wells's appearance. he stole his whole fucking body. what was left was just some skin and bones. Thawne as Wells wasnt just him pretending to be Wells. he was Wells. huge difference. the thawne part of wells was his purpose for mentoring barry and the others at star labs, but the actual mentoring itself was all wells.

Where was this mentioned? I don't remember there being anything about any kind of merging of personalities, or some part of Wells surviving, or anything along those lines - in fact they went out of the way via. the rival female scientist to emphasize how different Thawne behaved compared to the original Wells.

Shonuff · Feb 13, 2016

Xarpolis_sl said:
If any of you noticed, the last episode where he enters Earth-2, is how they're bridging the gap between Flash & Supergirl for the coming crossover. When Barry, Cisco & Wells first jumped into the portal thing, Supergirl was one of the images that appeared in their "travel".

Just thought I would share in case no one else noticed. I haven't read this thread in a while though.

Old news.

Chukzombi · Feb 13, 2016

Azrayne_sl said:
I wasn't, I was just saying "I wanna be the best! ...so I'm gonna murder dozens of people" is kind of lame as a sole motivating factor for a villain. Hell, it isn't even really a motivating factor, it's just psychopathy. How can you even have any character development at that point?

It's boring, especially when done twice in a row. Why not a villain with a unique and interesting power set which counteracts Barry, instead of just "yeah he's the exact same but faster." The fact that visually speaking they're literal mirror images really doesn't help. But I could live with both of those if the villains had some kind of interesting and realistic character development giving them genuine and believable motivations for their actions. That's the real problem - shit made up over half a century ago for 12 year olds who had severely limited alternative entertainment options doesn't really hold up in modern television for adults.

Where was this mentioned? I don't remember there being anything about any kind of merging of personalities, or some part of Wells surviving, or anything along those lines - in fact they went out of the way via. the rival female scientist to emphasize how different Thawne behaved compared to the original Wells.

Shonuff · Feb 13, 2016

Azrayne_sl said:
Am I the only one who thinks this show has gone way off the rails into batshitcrazyville? All this dimension hopping time travelling alternative earths alternate timelines death reversing thematically matching villain BS is what turns most people off comics in the first place.

They've said that their aim is to be the TV show closest to the comic books, so expect some craziness. If you think people are turned off, look at the ratings. They are having the Flash cameo on Supergirl to boost her ratings.

Gavinmad · Feb 13, 2016

Maester Chuk_sl said:

*whoosh*

Shonuff · Feb 13, 2016

Azrayne_sl said:
That's the real problem - shit made up over half a century ago for 12 year olds who had severely limited alternative entertainment options doesn't really hold up in modern television for adults.

ratings jump to 14-month high for Earth-2 reveal | EW.com

4 million viewers disagree with you. And it's on a tiny network.

Azrayne · Feb 13, 2016

Maester Chuk_sl said:

Yes, I did watch the show. Nothing in that scene implies that Thawne takes on any of Wells' traits beyond the physical, or that some part of Wells' personality somehow lives on in Thawne.

They've said that their aim is to be the TV show closest to the comic books, so expect some craziness. If you think people are turned off, look at the ratings. They are having the Flash cameo on Supergirl to boost her ratings.

I know I'm turned off, I wasn't sure about anyone else, which is why I asked. It looks like I'm in a minority - maybe because I'm not into comics, I dunno.

Ambiturner · Feb 13, 2016

Azrayne_sl said:
I wasn't, I was just saying "I wanna be the best! ...so I'm gonna murder dozens of people" is kind of lame as a sole motivating factor for a villain. Hell, it isn't even really a motivating factor, it's just psychopathy. How can you even have any character development at that point?

It's boring, especially when done twice in a row. Why not a villain with a unique and interesting power set which counteracts Barry, instead of just "yeah he's the exact same but faster." The fact that visually speaking they're literal mirror images really doesn't help. But I could live with both of those if the villains had some kind of interesting and realistic character development giving them genuine and believable motivations for their actions. That's the real problem - shit made up over half a century ago for 12 year olds who had severely limited alternative entertainment options doesn't really hold up in modern television for adults.

If any random new series was so half assed with it's writing and character design, everyone would rip it to shreds, including you guys. I don't understand why it gets a pass here.

Where was this mentioned? I don't remember there being anything about any kind of merging of personalities, or some part of Wells surviving, or anything along those lines - in fact they went out of the way via. the rival female scientist to emphasize how different Thawne behaved compared to the original Wells.

A valid complaint is that they didn't explain why Thawne actually hated Flash, other than he was a villain from the future which is a cop out if you just leave it at that.

However, I don't find any problem with Zoom just wanting to always become more powerful. It's a common trait in people. You have people worth billions who still want to make more money than they'll ever be able to spend and work until the day they die for no real reason. It's like MMOs where you play to get more powerful, so you can kill tougher bosses and become more powerful, so you can kill even tougher bosses and get even more powerful. Sure, it's stupid looking at it from the outside but it's definitely a very real motivation.

Chukzombi · Feb 13, 2016

Azrayne_sl said:
Yes, I did watch the show. Nothing in that scene implies that Thawne takes on any of Wells' traits beyond the physical, or that some part of Wells' personality somehow lives on in Thawne.

im not going to get into any kind of metaphysical discussion, but he did more than copy his body. he absorbed it. you just saw him suck all the life out of wells's body. that means he had wells's appearance and everything else including wells's memories and mannerisms. difference being is his "drive" was altered by merging with Thawne's drive for revenge and a portal to return back to his home.

Ambiturner · Feb 13, 2016

Maester Chuk_sl said:
im not going to get into any kind of metaphysical discussion, but he did more than copy his body. he absorbed it. you just saw him suck all the life out of wells's body. that means he had wells's appearance and everything else including wells's memories and mannerisms. difference being is his "drive" was altered by merging with Thawne's drive for revenge and a portal to return back to his home.

Never change.

Anyways, they should have Barry's enemy next season be his actual #1 villlain, the Anti-Monitor

Shonuff · Feb 13, 2016

Ambiturner_sl said:
Never change.

Anyways, they should have Barry's enemy next season be his actual #1 villlain, the Anti-Monitor

And then the logical next step is to have Barry die fighting him, and for Wally to take up the mantle.

Shonuff · Feb 13, 2016

Azrayne_sl said:
I know I'm turned off, I wasn't sure about anyone else, which is why I asked. It looks like I'm in a minority - maybe because I'm not into comics, I dunno.

I find it refreshing that they have the balls to not stay within the narrow confines of the "mainstream" comic adaptations we've seen in TV and movies so far. The stories have all been tame and watered down so far. Comic books are weird, with far out stories, magic, time hopping, multiple dimensions and reality warping. I believe the reason why Flash is so popular is because the stories are not the same superhero stories regurgitated, with the same basic formula. It's the reason why Deadpool has doubled box office expectations, or the Daredevil TV show did so well, or even Jessica Jones rocked. There are over 60+ superhero shows and movies that are out, greenlit, or in the works. The only way this works is for their to be diversity, or the whole thing is going to implode.

TLDR: Different is better in this genre; samey not so much.

Raes · Feb 13, 2016

Maester Chuk_sl said:
im not going to get into any kind of metaphysical discussion, but he did more than copy his body. he absorbed it. you just saw him suck all the life out of wells's body. that means he had wells's appearance andeverything else including wells's memories and mannerisms. difference being is his "drive" was altered by merging with Thawne's drive for revenge and a portal to return back to his home.

There is zero evidence to support this, other than you saying it repeatedly.

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