The NSA watches you poop.

tad10 · Jun 25, 2013

chaos_sl said:
Rand Paul says he did, but Rand Paul is a fucking lunatic.

'Cause it's crazy to not want the US to spy on its own folks, not want the US to use drones on American Soil and wonder why we're putting boots on the ground in Syria.

chaos · Jun 25, 2013

fanaskin_sl said:
theres 2 hairs to split, the collection of metadata on millions of Americans not even suspected of commiting a crime, and the actual recording of phone calls.

The meta data part I think isn't really debatable and just by itself is enough to call the program a gross violation of the 4th amendment, none of these people who are having their information compiled where ever accused of a crime.

I think we both realize that the internet is too new for as many protection laws to be written for it, so any digital information (including internet phone calls, all contents of emails, text messaging, anything you backup to the cloud ect ect ) are gone through.

You might have a point that they don't currently record every single phone call(which we will find out more about in the future), but if that is your red line man are they doing everything in their power to grab every bit of data even remotely related to an individual.

even without the recording of everyone's phone calls just the act of compiling metadata on every american kind of violates the "innocent until proven guilty" angle.

Again, we don't know that they are compiling that data or storing it or analyzing internet traffic. These things wouldn't surprise me, but we don't have evidence that it is happening. We know they can. That's it. I prefer to operate based off of what I know rather than speculation. It's funny, if you ask 10 different people what this whole scandal is about and what the NSA is doing you'll get 10 different answers.

tad10 · Jun 25, 2013

chaos_sl said:
I prefer to operate based off of what I know rather than speculation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deductive_reasoning

fanaskin · Jun 25, 2013

Couple things chaos:

When you say "FISA warrants" it's more like "fisa warrant" the warrant allows a range of activities they don't need an individual warrant for each instance.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/12/2...hers-despised/
Sen. Wyden: FISA's 'general warrants' are like the 'Writs of Assistance' the founding fathers despised

We know they are dragnet spying and metadata collection they've admitted to such

https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying/timeline

Torrid · Jun 25, 2013

chaos_sl said:
You spent a lot of time citing a military case here referencing what might happen to a civilian. Pretty epic fail, didn't even read all of it.

I didn't mean that Snowden would face the exact same abuses and in a military trial, I meant that he could expect harsh treatment and abuse of the law in a more general sense from an angry administration as Manning did. Both of these guys are competing for biggest leaker ever, after all. America's civilian justice system is rife with abuse, federal and state. We live in a country where prison rape is a joke it's so common. I'll spare you the DoJ abuse links.

Although I imagine Snowden's trial would also include some secrecy.

chaos · Jun 25, 2013

Torrid_sl said:
I didn't mean that Snowden would face the exact same abuses and in a military trial, I meant that he could expect harsh treatment and abuse of the law in a more general sense from an angry administration as Manning did. Both of these guys are competing for biggest leaker ever, after all. America's civilian justice system is rife with abuse, federal and state. We live in a country where prison rape is a joke it's so common. I'll spare you the DoJ abuse links.

Although I imagine Snowden's trial would also include some secrecy.

Our prison system is fucked up, no doubt. But most of the things you linked in that post are specific to the military judicial/prison system.

I don't know what they would do with Snowden's trial. Previous espionage trials haven't been secret so I'm not sure why this would be the exception.

Araysar · Jun 25, 2013

chaos_sl said:
Again, we don't know that they are compiling that data or storing it or analyzing internet traffic. These things wouldn't surprise me, but we don't have evidence that it is happening. We know they can. That's it. I prefer to operate based off of what I know rather than speculation. It's funny, if you ask 10 different people what this whole scandal is about and what the NSA is doing you'll get 10 different answers.

Of course we have evidence:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A

One is used to intercept data ("The room measures about 24 by 48 feet (7.3 by 15 m) and contains several racks of equipment, including a Narus STA 6400, a device designed to intercept and analyze Internet communications at very high speeds.[1]")

Other one is used to store yottabytes of data in a facility that requires 45MW to power.

Saying that"we don't know that they are compiling that data or storing it or analyzing internet traffic. "is just willful ignorance at this point. Its like unless Obama comes on the podium himself personally and states that exactly, nothing is good enough to pass the burden of proof.

tad10 · Jun 25, 2013

chaos_sl said:
I don't know what they would do with Snowden's trial. Previous espionage trials haven't been secret so I'm not sure why this would be the exception.

Snowden gets a pass. The people who should be on trial are the plethora of NSA Analysts who are daily breaking their oath to uphold the Constitution of the United States.

Neki · Jun 25, 2013

NSA collecting phone records of millions of Verizon customers daily - The Guardian

The National Security Agency is currently collecting the telephone records of millions of US customers of Verizon, one of America's largest telecoms providers, under a top secret court order issued in April.

The order, a copy of which has been obtained by the Guardian, requires Verizon on an "ongoing, daily basis" to give the NSA information on all telephone calls in its systems, both within the US and between the US and other countries.

The document shows for the first time that under the Obama administration the communication records of millions of US citizens are being collected indiscriminately and in bulk - regardless of whether they are suspected of any wrongdoing.

The secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (Fisa) granted the order to the FBI on April 25, giving the government unlimited authority to obtain the data for a specified three-month period ending on July 19.

Torrid · Jun 25, 2013

Araysar_sl said:
Other one is used to store yottabytes of data

I'll play devil's advocate here and mention that the yottabytes claim is almost certainly false. You would need literally billions harddrives to have enough storage for one yottabyte. I googled a lot of articles mentioning the yottabyte claim, but it's simple math. So unless they have area-51 storage devices, it can't be accurate. Exabytes, sure.

fanaskin · Jun 25, 2013

Devil's advocate:

Storage technology is the fastest growing segment of technology these days. The thumb drive I have that's 1 inch long stores 16 gigs that would have taken something the size of a large bible to store even 10 years ago

flash drives bro check em out.

ZyyzYzzy · Jun 25, 2013

A large bible? That's what you use for size comparison? Is the hydrogen peroxide giving you visions now?

Big Phoenix · Jun 25, 2013

chaos_sl said:
Except that isn't true. It is not being copied. At least, not that we know right now. All we know is that capability exists. So unless you know something that isn't being talked about in the media, I don't see any evidence that he lied.

Guess theyre using that facility in Utah to store all the porn on the internet then. Dont you just hate watching an awesome porn video and not being able to find it later?

a_skeleton_03 · Jun 25, 2013

fanaskin_sl said:
all you gotta do is goad the apologists they make themselves look foolish.

lol fanaskin claiming victory whenever he feels like it

I think Merlin and Lumie have double your IQ.

a_skeleton_03 · Jun 25, 2013

fanaskin_sl said:
So they spent billions of dollars to setup the infrastructure to copy major telecom traffic to not use it? If they aren't using it why do they need all this memory to store information in data centers? they are spending billions of dollars on information storage because they don't plan on using it?

Or, OR, OOOORRRR they aren't done yet and are planning to do so.

tad10 · Jun 25, 2013

Torrid_sl said:
I'll play devil's advocate here and mention that the yottabytes claim is almost certainly false. You would need literally billions harddrives to have enough storage for one yottabyte. I googled a lot of articles mentioning the yottabyte claim, but it's simple math. So unless they have area-51 storage devices, it can't be accurate. Exabytes, sure.

I already previously linked the article which cites a former NSA source that the capacity is for 5 Zettabytes but I'll link it again.
http://gcn.com/articles/2013/06/10/n...-capacity.aspx

a_skeleton_03 · Jun 25, 2013

Araysar_sl said:
Saying that"we don't know that they are compiling that data or storing it or analyzing internet traffic. "is just willful ignorance at this point. Its like unless Obama comes on the podium himself personally and states that exactly, nothing is good enough to pass the burden of proof.

Are or will is the issue.

fanaskin · Jun 25, 2013

a_skeleton_03_sl said:
Or, OR, OOOORRRR they aren't done yet and are planning to do so.

so we just get to wait and sit around while they build it? what if the "public debate" determines that we shouldn't be collecting data on millions of people without any presumption they commited a crime, they are going to just dismantle the facility? please.

you keep claiming that people can't have perspective because they don't "know everything" while simultaneously acknowledging that everything is secret, and you don't see the double game that's played there?

The government (executive branch) literally was told no don't do this like 10 years ago and they did it anyways. Now to say it's "legal" because it's been around for 10 years is kind of asinine to anyone with the slightest resemblance of rational thinking.

a_skeleton_03 · Jun 25, 2013

fanaskin_sl said:
so we just get to wait and sit around while they build it? what if the "public debate" determines that we shouldn't be collecting data on millions of people without any presumption they commited a crime, they are going to just dismantle the facility? please.

Nope we don't have to sit around at all. We all knew that was happening before we knew about Snowden. Did you write your congressman about it? Did you vote out the current regime? Did you do anything except tirade on a forum and pretend you know what you are talking about?

Maybe a legit whistle blower could have turned some information over to congress for those in congress that aren't biased on the intelligence committee? Someone that didn't leave the country to countries that are way worse about civil liberties than anything we have ever done in the USA.

BrutulTM · Jun 25, 2013

This thread is quite the shit show. Who is paying you guys to make a post every 2-5 minutes for like 6 straight hours?

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