The Trayvon Trial

Zimmerman tried to play hero and it blew up in his face. If he was that worried about his community, either leave it to the cops or move. Take care of YOUR property, and leave it at that.

I can't comment as to Trayvon's actions (it sounds like he acted like a punk though...worthy of an ass kicking, not dying) on account of him being dead and not having his side of the story.

But because guilt cannot be proven, (beyond reasonable doubt and all that), Zimmerman MUST go free. It sucks, but its the way things work, better 100 guilty men go free than 1 innocent man, etc, etc, etc. It should not be easy for someone to be thrown in jail for the rest of their life/be put to death. I do feel bad for the prosecutor because they don't have a whole lot to work with. Their "star" witness did more harm than good.

I think prior to some of these testimony's manslaughter was a real possibility, but at this point the jury is probably so screwed up on how they feel about this, who knows if they will find him guilty.

I also think saying Zimmerman's eagerness to investigate was racially motivated may be a stretch, but even if it was, so what. I can sit on my porch and yell at the black kids going to school till I lose my voice, I can call the cops on every mexican that cuts through my alleyway, I can make holocaust jokes at every jew I see. Being a shithead isn't illegal.

People are generally shitty, and as it stands adding "race" to a crime adds what, ten extra years? Still have to prove it was done.

Zimmerman has ether executed one of the most effective cover ups in history or he is innocent. A person that would go out and just shoot a random black kid on street for being black is not likely to be able to conceal the desire to do so from other people prior to the act.

Sense I think Zimmerman is a Idiot I tend to go with not guilty but not really innocent ether.

I think he was an idiot as well but I don't see how he's guilty of murder (perhaps manslaughter but it's a stretch). Nobody can prove who started the fight and yet there is evidence that Zimmerman was taking a beating on the ground. The guy is judged guilty simply because he got out of his car and saying 'these punks always get away' but that's not proof that he instigated the actual fight. There is no evidence, even from his (girl)friend's testimony that Martin was scared at any point.

From what I've heard through media it appears Trayvon stopped beating Zimmerman before the male neighbor opened his porch door and witnessed Trayvon on top of Zimmerman with the latter shouting for help (the neighbor subsequently told them he was calling the police). If Trayvon was not beating Zimmerman after that incident and was only pinning Zimmerman down on the ground I think Zimmerman should be guilty of murder since the threat which would justify use of deadly force had passed. Also since a witness (the neighbor) had seen Trayvon I think it's unlikely Trayvon would afterwards try to beat to death Zimmerman at the apartment complex where his dad lived. If Zimmerman had shot Trayvon during the initial flury you can argue self defense, but once the attack had ceased and Trayvon had Zimmerman pinned waiting for the police I would consider that murder. However we have to know the circumstances when Zimmerman fired the gun and there might not be a witness to that.

gunther_sl said:

If Trayvon was not beating Zimmerman after that incident and was only pinning Zimmerman down on the ground I think Zimmerman should be guilty of murder since the threat which would justify use of deadly force had passed.

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Is the continuum of force (like what law enforcement is supposed to be held to) applicable to these self defense cases? I've been wondering that through this whole circus.

EDIT: Quick browse of wikipedia confirms that yes, you basically need to have reasonable fear that your life could be in danger. I'd consider having my head banged against concrete to suffice.

Rofl, if someone is on top of me beating the crap out of me and stops for any reason other than the presence of law enforcement, I'm gonna shoot/stab/whatever the motherfucker and not wait for him to resume pounding my head into the pavement. If he's still physically on top of you after having beat the dog shit out of you, he's still a threat that justifies the use of deadly force.

I think you can only respond with deadly force if there's a legitimate physical threat. There may be a window period after a fight has occurred when you can argue in a court of law someone can be regarded as a threat and using deadly force to ensure your safety can be considered legal but it's probably highly circumstantial. I think you get an idea when the fight is over and what the intentions of the other person are. In my opinion what happened was after the fight resulting from Zimmerman's stalking and harassment, Trayvon pinned him because he still considered him a threat as he waited for the police. Anyways that's just my take on these events, I guess the verdict depends on if Zimmerman shot Trayvon while he was being attacked or if he was only being pinned down if he's legally allowed to shoot Trayvon to prevent another round of blows (although knowing the police were on the way I don't think Zimmerman had reason to believe Trayvon would have continued beating him when there was already a witness able to (likely) identify Trayvon (as Trayvon's fathers apartment was half a block away and the witness may have seen him before.

The new discussion on the Justice for Trayvon Facebook page.
https://www.facebook.com/JforTrayvonMartin?fref=ts


They way people are reacting it seems shit will really go down if he walks. Im 32 and lived in Riverside county California during the Rodney King beating and I remember things being bad enough that the public schools in my area closed down for a few days during the riots.

vGrade_sl said:

The new discussion on the Justice for Trayvon Facebook page.
https://www.facebook.com/JforTrayvonMartin?fref=ts

They way people are reacting it seems shit will really go down if he walks. Im 32 and lived in Riverside county California during the Rodney King beating and I remember things being bad enough that the public schools in my area closed down for a few days during the riots.

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It's not good because the people that riot generally are the stupidest people (regardless of race). They aren't lawyers, they don't have nearly all the facts, and they think that no matter what justice won't be served. It's really unfortunate and disgusting, but I feel like this is what's going to happen. Why can't people just act civilized? I didn't see any goddamn riots when OJ walked for killing his wife.

gunther_sl said:

I think you can only respond with deadly force if there's a legitimate physical threat. There may be a window period after a fight has occurred when you can argue in a court of law someone can be regarded as a threat and using deadly force to ensure your safety can be considered legal but it's probably highly circumstantial. I think you get an idea when the fight is over and what the intentions of the other person are. In my opinion what happened was after the fight resulting from Zimmerman's stalking and harassment, Trayvon pinned him because he still considered him a threat as he waited for the police. Anyways that's just my take on these events, I guess the verdict depends on if Zimmerman shot Trayvon while he was being attacked or if he was only being pinned down if he's legally allowed to shoot Trayvon to prevent another round of blows (although knowing the police were on the way I don't think Zimmerman had reason to believe Trayvon would have continued beating him when there was already a witness able to (likely) identify Trayvon (as Trayvon's fathers apartment was half a block away and the witness may have seen him before.

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Spoken like someone who has never been in a fight in his life. If someone is still on top of you after having just beaten the crap out of you, they're still a threat regardless of whether or not they're currently distracted by someone shouting about having called the cops. You don't stop and think 'oh he probably wont continue beating my ass now', in fact you don't have time to stop and think anything. As soon as you regain your senses from having had your head pounded into the pavement, you immediately take whatever actions you have to in order to protect yourself.

I've never seen, or been involved in a fight where someone wanted to, or tried to kill someone else so I wouldn't know how someone thinks when they are fighting for their lives. I've seen plenty of fights that have been all about ego though.

Gavinrad_sl said:

Spoken like someone who has never been in a fight in his life. If someone is still on top of you after having just beaten the crap out of you, they're still a threat regardless of whether or not they're currently distracted by someone shouting about having called the cops. You don't stop and think 'oh he probably wont continue beating my ass now', in fact you don't have time to stop and think anything. As soon as you regain your senses from having had your head pounded into the pavement, you immediately take whatever actions you have to in order to protect yourself.

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In the case of how SYG is written - his hypothetical would make Zimmerman guilty - regardless of your opinion of right or wrong. The person who wrote the bill has stated as much (similar to how if he did follow Trayvon the bill does technically cover that although it was against his intent and he'd try to revise that if he was still in the legislature) - any reprieve in threat makes it inappropriate.

Now if there was a reprieve and he balled his fists back up and started pulling back for another strike, that's another matter. Or say reaching for a big rock or something. But assuming Trayvon stopped and was doing nothing but sitting on him posing no threat beyond annoyance for even just a few seconds - SYG doesn't cover.

[I doubt his hypothetical is correct however]

noble savage_sl said:

This is the point that everyone who argues about what George Zimmerman should or shouldn't have done in the middle of a fight is wrong about. When you are in a fight with another adult male (I know he was 17 but he is still grown) any fight could end up being life or death. One wrong punch, one wrong fall, one wrong 17 year old wannabe thug losing control in the moment can make it life or death. I certainly am not putting my life or personal safety in the hands of someone else hoping they won't hurt me too bad. Some people don't play around when it comes to protecting themselves and it seems like George Zimmerman was one of those people. He looked pretty beat up in the photos and if he was getting his head smacked into the concrete that is life threatening and I probably would have smoked that kid too when given the chance.

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Not to mention the fact that it's not like he shot him as soon as the fight started. He's screaming for help for at least 40+ seconds, nobody is coming, how long is one supposed to wait before they take matters into their own hands? The neighbor never said that the fighting stopped (he only saw them fighting for 10 seconds max), he did say he saw the person on top (Martin) with his arms and shoulders going in a down motion. Others says that he suffered relatively minor injuries but when your in that situation and fear starts to take over, does it matter how injured you actually must be? Must he have waited until he had a concussion or blacked out?

noble savage_sl said:

This is the point that everyone who argues about what George Zimmerman should or shouldn't have done in the middle of a fight is wrong about. When you are in a fight with another adult male (I know he was 17 but he is still grown) any fight could end up being life or death. One wrong punch, one wrong fall, one wrong 17 year old wannabe thug losing control in the moment can make it life or death. I certainly am not putting my life or personal safety in the hands of someone else hoping they won't hurt me too bad. Some people don't play around when it comes to protecting themselves and it seems like George Zimmerman was one of those people. He looked pretty beat up in the photos and if he was getting his head smacked into the concrete that is life threatening and I probably would have smoked that kid too when given the chance.

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No black eye and only some bleeding on the head - and head cuts can bleed like hell for even a very minor wound. Hell, I've had similar photo opportunities (well, I've got full hair so it would've been obscured) from a couple falls into counters and such that were minor as shit and didn't even need bandaging or stitches even though they looked awful and bloody for a good bit)

They COULD'VE been bad, but I'm assuming you've never had a minor head laceration to know how much even a minor one can bleed. He looked hurt but the level is questionable - ranging from minor barely past shaving up to moderate. [and note, no sign of bruising in pics I see - which would be quite odd to me if he was being "bashed into the curb" like is claimed - heads bruise quickly and that's absolutely the impact I'd expect to bruise (again from far too many times hurting myself... having a health condition that causes falls is fun....)]

Vandyn_sl said:

Not to mention the fact that it's not like he shot him as soon as the fight started. He's screaming for help for at least 40+ seconds, nobody is coming, how long is one supposed to wait before they take matters into their own hands? The neighbor never said that the fighting stopped, he did say he saw the person on top (Martin) with his arms and shoulders going in a down motion. Others says that he suffered relatively minor injuries but when your in that situation and fear starts to take over, does it matter how injured you actually must be? Must he have waited until he had a concussion or blacked out?

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Last I checked it's like 3-1 for people that say Trayvon was yelling for help amongst the witnesses. So assuming those witnesses are accurate (and my ratio could be off, lets assume there's just one - but even one might be right while others are wrong) and Trayvon was yelling for help for 40 sec how does it look?

Vaclav_sl said:

In the case of how SYG is written - his hypothetical would make Zimmerman guilty - regardless of your opinion of right or wrong. The person who wrote the bill has stated as much (similar to how if he did follow Trayvon the bill does technically cover that although it was against his intent and he'd try to revise that if he was still in the legislature) - any reprieve in threat makes it inappropriate.

Now if there was a reprieve and he balled his fists back up and started pulling back for another strike, that's another matter. Or say reaching for a big rock or something. But assuming Trayvon stopped and was doing nothing but sitting on him posing no threat beyond annoyance for even just a few seconds - SYG doesn't cover.

[I doubt his hypothetical is correct however]

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WTF?

Of course Stand Your Ground doesn't apply, because it doesn't need to. Even in a Duty to Retreat state, your obligation to try and escape the situation is absolved when your assailant has physically prevented you from doing so. It's also incredibly ignorant to say that someone who had just been savagely beating you and is still on top of you poses no threat to you. They were still engaged in a fight, regardless of whether or not there was a brief lull due to Trayvon being distracted from someone yelling about calling the cops.

Pull your head out of your ass.

Vaclav_sl said:

No black eye and only some bleeding on the head - and head cuts can bleed like hell for even a very minor wound. Hell, I've had similar photo opportunities (well, I've got full hair so it would've been obscured) from a couple falls into counters and such that were minor as shit and didn't even need bandaging or stitches even though they looked awful and bloody for a good bit)

They COULD'VE been bad, but I'm assuming you've never had a minor head laceration to know how much even a minor one can bleed. He looked hurt but the level is questionable - ranging from minor barely past shaving up to moderate. [and note, no sign of bruising in pics I see - which would be quite odd to me if he was being "bashed into the curb" like is claimed - heads bruise quickly and that's absolutely the impact I'd expect to bruise (again from far too many times hurting myself... having a health condition that causes falls is fun....)]

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He had two black eyes when he went the doctor the next day. Also had a closed fracture of the nose. Also had multiple lumps on his head the night of the fight.