The Trayvon Trial

Vaclav_sl said:

Last I checked it's like 3-1 for people that say Trayvon was yelling for help amongst the witnesses. So assuming those witnesses are accurate (and my ratio could be off, lets assume there's just one - but even one might be right while others are wrong) and Trayvon was yelling for help for 40 sec how does it look?

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Wut? I might be wrong but havnt all the main witnesses pretty much said it was the guy in the red sweater on his back yelling for help which is what Zimmerman was wearing

Vaclav_sl said:

Last I checked it's like 3-1 for people that say Trayvon was yelling for help amongst the witnesses. So assuming those witnesses are accurate (and my ratio could be off, lets assume there's just one - but even one might be right while others are wrong) and Trayvon was yelling for help for 40 sec how does it look?

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There is only two, one of which says it was a 'boy's voice'. The other person who says its Martin is his girlfriend, who has reason to have bias. The one that was closest to the fight (the one who testified yesterday) was positive the screaming came from the guy on the bottom and he also identified the guy on the bottom as having lighter skin. Plus tons of evidence that Zimmerman was on the bottom (pics, grass stains on his clothes, etc). So who do you think is more accurate, the guy who saw them right outside his door or the woman two houses down who never saw anything and his girlfriend? Also remember that when initially listening to the 911 call, his own father said that wasn't his son.

To be honest, it's gotten to the point that I don't even think the state is trying to dispute anymore that Martin was on top and are now going on the 'he had little injuries' strategy.

Gavinrad_sl said:

WTF?

Of course Stand Your Ground doesn't apply, because it doesn't need to. Even in a Duty to Retreat state, your obligation to try and escape the situation is absolved when your assailant has physically prevented you from doing so. It's also incredibly ignorant to say that someone who had just been savagely beating you and is still on top of you poses no threat to you. They were still engaged in a fight, regardless of whether or not there was a brief lull due to Trayvon being distracted from someone yelling about calling the cops.

Pull your head out of your ass.

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It was a question of SYG - I answered that, neanderthal. I wasn't saying there wasn't anything else in play. LEARN TO FUCKING READ WHAT SOMEONE SAYS WITHOUT ADDITIONAL BULLSHIT THAT YOU IMAGINE.

Vandyn_sl said:

He had two black eyes when he went the doctor the next day. Also had a closed fracture of the nose. Also had multiple lumps on his head the night of the fight.

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Which wouldn't be a photo as was being referenced - and the doctor's report has been disputed by some (although I'm not sure experts or not).

Vandyn_sl said:

There is only two, one of which says it was a 'boy's voice'. The other person who says its Martin is his girlfriend, who has reason to have bias. The one that was closest to the fight (the one who testified yesterday) was positive the screaming came from the guy on the bottom and he also identified the guy on the bottom as having lighter skin. Plus tons of evidence that Zimmerman was on the bottom (pics, grass stains on his clothes, etc). So who do you think is more accurate, the guy who saw them right outside his door or the woman two houses down who never saw anything and his girlfriend? Also remember that when initially listening to the 911 call, his own father said that wasn't his son.

To be honest, it's gotten to the point that I don't even think the state is trying to dispute anymore that Martin was on top and are now going on the 'he had little injuries' strategy.

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Being on top doesn't stop someone from being able to call for help, FYI.

One thing taught to some people (in fact I was when I was younger in my defense courses that were given in NJ or DE [I remember my approx age when, approx enough that it covers both] decades ago) is to if attacked and in a situation where you have pinned the assailant you should continue to hold them in place and holler for assistance. It's possible this is no longer taught, but it's possible it still is.

Remember when you dismount someone that you've pinned you're prone to attack the entire time due to the nature of dismounting, be it from a gun and knife or even just having your leg wrenched out from under you.

For all we know Trayvon saw the gun under his coat and stopped to start yelling while he was trying to keep Z's hands away from it. [In fact in one early interview I seem to recall Z saying that he thought he say Trayvon reaching for it which can be easily taken as a threat, but could've been Trayvon going for it to toss it aside to make sure what happened didn't.... (and note in that hypothetical of Trayvon reaching for the gun, SYG would be in play again....)]

The closest witnesses said the person on the bottom was yelling for help and they were wearing a red sweater and had lighter skin..... This whole thing is a fucking joke, black community got rustled and the media blew this shit out of the water. Im surprised how many people are saying Zimmerman was just being stupid, with how much crime that was going on in that gated community and the cops never doing shit it shouldnt be that crazy what Zimmerman did especially getting the shit kicked out of you and if he did verbally threaten his life

Homsar_sl said:

The closest witnesses said the person on the bottom was yelling for help and they were wearing a red sweater.....

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And closeness doesn't make someone a better or worse witness with history as a guide - eyewitnesses are frequently wrong with something even happening inches from them at times. Whitewashing witnesses that said something you don't prefer because they're "further" ignores the fact that witnesses are often wrong even if they're close. Both sets of witnesses should be considered.

I do agree it seems more likely, at least enough for "reasonable doubt", but factually speaking can't take it as an absolute.

Additionally note, if they weren't right on top of them to see their lips move - when it's dark it's gonna be pretty damn hard to tell who is talking without intimate familiarity with their voices while agitated.

Vaclav_sl said:

It was a question of SYG - I answered that, neanderthal. I wasn't saying there wasn't anything else in play. LEARN TO FUCKING READ WHAT SOMEONE SAYS WITHOUT ADDITIONAL BULLSHIT THAT YOU IMAGINE.

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You're dumb as hell.

Vaclav_sl said:

And closeness doesn't make someone a better or worse witness with history as a guide - eyewitnesses are frequently wrong with something even happening inches from them at times. Whitewashing witnesses that said something you don't prefer because they're "further" ignores the fact that witnesses are often wrong even if they're close. Both sets of witnesses should be considered.

I do agree it seems more likely, at least enough for "reasonable doubt", but factually speaking can't take it as an absolute.

Additionally note, if they weren't right on top of them to see their lips move - when it's dark it's gonna be pretty damn hard to tell who is talking without intimate familiarity with their voices while agitated.

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I dont know what your getting at, the witnesses pretty much said it was zimmerman yelling for help on the ground, Zimmerman is the one with grass stains on his back, lacerations on the back of his head and a busted up face. There is really nothing that suggests Martin was on the bottom, just ignore everything and just go with an eye witness could have been wrong and fuck the evidence? With how much crime was going on in the neighborhood how many people would just ignore someone suspicious especially if your neighborhood watch ?

Gavinrad_sl said:

You're dumb as hell.

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Right because answering a question about a single facet when a single facet is asked about is "dumb as hell" when you're the one presuming I was saying that he should be hung because of it. When I've been saying all along I would've preferred a charge even lesser than manslaughter since he was reckless but not malicious or directly inappropriate from what can be evidenced.

As you understood yourself for the majority of possibilities for the case SYG doesn't really apply - it's something most people misunderstand as it's been spouted so much - that's why I was trying to clarify how it likely didn't apply.

I'll start caveating every single post where I cover explaining things without pushing an opinion with an asterik and "NOTE NOT MY OPINION OF HOW THINGS SHOULD HAPPEN, JUST TRYING TO EXPLAIN HERE!" warning for idiots like you in the future. Actually no, I won't - not worth the time. But I should it seems. But yes I'm "dumb as shit" for promoting understanding of something while not pressuring an opinion.

Homsar_sl said:

I dont know what your getting at, the witnesses pretty much said it was zimmerman yelling for help on the ground, Zimmerman is the one with grass stainson his back and lacerations on the back of his head and a busted up face. There is really nothing that suggests Martin was on the bottom, just ignore everything and just go with an eye witness could have been wrong and fuck the evidence ?

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You don't have to be losing a fight to yell for assistance. If he felt he had just apprehended someone doing something wrong, stopping and then hollering for help is exactly the appropriate thing to do. Hell, I've seen people in fights "yell for assistance" while they're directly aggressing the situation rather than defusing it even, and I've seen the convex as well where someone is beating the hell out of someone in defense while hollering for someone to hold the person back so the fight stops.

Thinking only someone losing can yell for help is ludicrous - it's MORE LIKELY I will agree - but you're speaking in absolutes. There's no reason one side should be discounted amongst accounts - both sides could be right with things as they're presented - although it LOOKS to be in Z's favor with the public data available.

What the fuck else do you need to have. Is there something else besides evidence and eye witnesses to show what was going on? Seems like even if there was a video of the incident you would fucking argue it

Vaclav_sl said:

You don't have to be losing a fight to yell for assistance. If he felt he had just apprehended someone doing something wrong, stopping and then hollering for help is exactly the appropriate thing to do. Hell, I've seen people in fights "yell for assistance" while they're directly aggressing the situation rather than defusing it even, and I've seen the convex as well where someone is beating the hell out of someone in defense while hollering for someone to hold the person back so the fight stops.

Thinking only someone losing can yell for help is ludicrous - it's MORE LIKELY I will agree - but you're speaking in absolutes. There's no reason one side should be discounted amongst accounts - both sides could be right with things as they're presented - although it LOOKS to be in Z's favor with the public data available.

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His reasoning for why he believed the yelling was coming from the guy on the bottom was that it didn't echo all the buildings as if someone was vertical, it was direct to him. Take that for what it's worth. There is enough evidence that shows that Zimmerman was on the bottom, with injuries no matter how slight, with the back of his pant legs being wet, with the back of his jacket being more wet than the front with grass stains, you're not going to get a whole lot of people who are going to buy that Martin, who in this scenario would be the person in the dominate position, yelling for help.

Homsar_sl said:

What the fuck else do you need to have. Is there something else besides evidence and eye witnesses to show what was going on? Seems like even if there was a video of the incident you would fucking argue it

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To have an opinion? My opinion is pro-Z. Legal certainty is another matter. Which again because of doubt will end up being pro-Z.

Some of you out to acquit Z seem to want to ignore how "If" cases here could line up poorly for him - it's not likely without some sort of damning evidence that doesn't exist - but there's no absolute "Yep, he's innocent" stuff in play either. It's tons and tons of gray.

Likely a video would help since it would allay many of the questions involved here though - although in that theoretical the quality and positioning could matter. (Shit, look at the theorycrafting conspiracy nuts do over Boston that had TONS of film)

Vandyn_sl said:

His reasoning for why he believed the yelling was coming from the guy on the bottom was that it didn't echo all the buildings as if someone was vertical, it was direct to him. Take that for what it's worth. There is enough evidence that shows that Zimmerman was on the bottom, with injuries no matter how slight, with the back of his pant legs being wet, with the back of his jacket being more wet than the front with grass stains, you're not going to get a whole lot of people who are going to buy that Martin, who in this scenario would be the person in the dominate position, yelling for help.

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Not really trying to convince anyone - I don't believe it myself - however I don't discount it as impossible.

Maester Chuk_sl said:

Vaclav, you wont lose your guilty white man card if you'll admit zimmerman did nothing wrong in defending himself

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I personally believe he didn't do anything wrong (well, beyond breaking protocol to be a little gungho - but that's just bad judgment not "wrong" from a legal standpoint) but there's not 100% solid evidence to state that, it's just my feeling on the matter.

I just see tons of room for the holes in what we know to end up flipping things potentially because there's so much gray.

I know that charging Zimmerman with murder 2 means he can still be found guilty of a lesser charge instead but for those of you that assign a significant amount of blame to Zimmerman do any of you think he is guilty of second degree murder?

To prove second degree murder, a prosecutor must show that the defendant acted according to a "depraved mind" without regard for human life. Florida state laws permit the prosecution of second degree murder when the killing lacked premeditation or planning, but the defendant acted with enmity toward the victim or the two had an ongoing interaction or relationship. Unlike first degree murder, second degree murder does not necessarily require proof of the defendant's intent to kill.

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Manslaughter I can understand. I don't think there is proof beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman is guilty of anything but if he was to be found guilty of something I can at least understand how a jury could stick him with that. Second degree murder to me seems absolutely ridiculous.

I don't think too many people are saying Zimmerman is as a matter of fact innocent of being a douche and following the kid. But based on what we do know, and what has come to light, it is more than reasonable to have doubt about him following Trayvon and gunning him down in cold blood. Zman probably would have had either serious head injuries, or have been killed, had he not fired on Trayvon. If I had a gun and some buff guy (regardless of color, mind you) was bashing my head into the ground, I wouldn't be like, Hey, I have a gun, you better get off. I would be trying to get him off the best possible way (using my weapon) before the next blow to the head occurred.

I can't get away from this stupid case unless I turn on foreign news, and fucking everyone has already decided one way or the other on a verdict and when they interview people their questioning is soooooooo ridiculous it makes me want to throw something at the TV. Unfortunately, it seems like ratings have proven that court trials are winners, and as CNN just announced they're going to cover more trials, this just really rustles me (I don't regularly watch CNN, but in general all News Stations are moving towards this. It's like Idol/Voice for people who watch the news). Either become CourtTV2 or stick to the news. You can cover everything from the case in 5 minutes at the end of the day.