The Walking Dead

I have some 3-4 year old gas in my shed that still does the trick for my lawn mower. It's probably not good for it, but it works.

Tarrant_sl said:

Yep, wanting to tie someone up to torture them for ho knows how long....nope, not an evil thing to do at all.

Nope.

Forcing a woman to take her shirt off and mentally put her through the wringer and act like you are going to rape her while she is totally defenseless against you....nope, not evil at all.

Forcing two brothers to fight each other to the death while surrounded by walkers....nope, not evil at all.

Fuck this guy is really misunderstood, I don't get it.

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Don't forget sending Merle to murder Michonne just because she didn't want to live in Woodbury anymore.

Tarrant_sl said:

Yep, wanting to tie someone up to torture them for ho knows how long....nope, not an evil thing to do at all.

Nope.

Forcing a woman to take her shirt off and mentally put her through the wringer and act like you are going to rape her while she is totally defenseless against you....nope, not evil at all.

Forcing two brothers to fight each other to the death while surrounded by walkers....nope, not evil at all.

Fuck this guy is really misunderstood, I don't get it.

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He's just trying to have a good time in a world with no TV or internet bro.

heh, those are just more moustache twirling scenes for the dummies to know that Gov is the bad guy. lets not get into the goods and bads of torture for information. its not a discussion im going to particiapte in.

If you wanna get on my ass about good and bad of each character thats fine, but political discussions about torture as a tool for information on your enemies isnt really for this forum. If you want to say im copping out because im afraid I would "lose", then thats fine too. I do derail, but I try to keep politics and religion out of here.

By all accounts the Governor has a better society than Rick has managed to produce. You can argue the way he went about creating it would be seen is wrong but he clearly knows something Rick does not and that is not only surviving but thriving. Anytime Rick meets a new person they are immediately thrown in chains and put in a cell. At least the Governor lets them in the place and, for the most part, roam the city freely. Take out some of the stuff where the writers clearly tried to show the Governor as evil in the show and you'll see a very moral grey zone. Pitting Daryl against Merle? What do you expect the entire town loves it and cheers it. He is clearly appeasing the masses with the decision. Killing the National Guard? Prior to Rick's group he hadn't had a zombie encounter in however long he said. So he needs weapons for the security of the survivors. Granted he murdered a ton of innocents but in that action he also saved the lives of around 100 people. The whole out-of-character rape (is grabbing a boob rape? Is that like sexual assault?) and attempted murder of Glen is really unquestionably evil. But they never established him as that type of person so the scene still felt forced to me. Like the writers realized people could relate to him as a "any means of survival" character so they just had to put in something that is not a gray zone moral question.

exactly Tenks and lets not forget what daryl did to that (woodbury?) dude shackled in the barn who fell on the fence spike. im also probably wrong but didnt rick send him in there? also didnt rick do something when they took michonne in this season?

When you're trying to qualify a point about the governor not being that evil if you remove scenes where he is being just that, then obviously he's less so. I don't even know why you're bothering. You can paint anyone whichever way you want if you start removing the relevant situations that oppose that. Sure, his character was MORE fucked up in the comics, but he's still a fucked up individual. And I don't think he gives a shit about his people, not really, he'll use them to whichever ends he wants, and expects them to lay down their lives for him - seeing him question the scientist side kick if he would die for him or not reinforces this. He gets as much pleasure out of seeing people fight/die amongst the zombies as the rest of the crowd, and I'm pretty damn sure they'd be fine without those fights being orchestrated. No one going to comment on him sending Merle and a group to go kill Michonne for leaving this group? It just doesn't wash, him and Rick aren't even comparable.

im not trying to say Gov isnt evil. of course he is, but what im trying to say, hes not much more evil than rick. the gov is fucked up you say? well of course. but do you think rick isnt fucked up? did you forget when he goes on his little Lori tangents? how he told everyone to fuck off to spend time on his Loriphone? as bad as The Gov, is, at least he cared a whole lot for his daughter. how many scenes are there with rick and his daughter? how many times has he showed any concerns about his daughter's well being? The gov wants to BTK michonne because she rekilled his daughter. The Gov is psychotic and evil but least hes got his priorities straight

Tenks_sl said:

By all accounts the Governor has a better society than Rick has managed to produce. You can argue the way he went about creating it would be seen is wrong but he clearly knows something Rick does not and that is not only surviving but thriving. Anytime Rick meets a new person they are immediately thrown in chains and put in a cell. At least the Governor lets them in the place and, for the most part, roam the city freely. Take out some of the stuff where the writers clearly tried to show the Governor as evil in the show and you'll see a very moral grey zone. Pitting Daryl against Merle? What do you expect the entire town loves it and cheers it. He is clearly appeasing the masses with the decision. Killing the National Guard? Prior to Rick's group he hadn't had a zombie encounter in however long he said. So he needs weapons for the security of the survivors. Granted he murdered a ton of innocents but in that action he also saved the lives of around 100 people. The whole out-of-character rape (is grabbing a boob rape? Is that like sexual assault?) and attempted murder of Glen is really unquestionably evil. But they never established him as that type of person so the scene still felt forced to me. Like the writers realized people could relate to him as a "any means of survival" character so they just had to put in something that is not a gray zone moral question.

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Instead of murdering the National Guard soldiers, he could have invited them to join his town first since he is such a nice guy and welcomes everyone with open arms. But don't you dare not like it there and try to leave because your ass is getting murdered.

Such a swell fella!

Maester Chuk_sl said:

im not trying to say Gov isnt evil. of course he is, but what im trying to say, hes not much more evil than rick. the gov is fucked up you say? well of course. but do you think rick isnt fucked up? did you forget when he goes on his little Lori tangents? how he told everyone to fuck off to spend time on his Loriphone? as bad as The Gov, is, at least he cared a whole lot for his daughter. how many scenes are there with rick and his daughter? how many times has he showed any concerns about his daughter's well being? The gov wants to BTK michonne because she rekilled his daughter. The Gov is psychotic and evil but least hes got his priorities straight

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I was actually addressing what Tenks said and not you Astro, but to go over your points.. I do think Rick is fucked up, he's hallucinating about Lori ffs - absolutely right he is. I think the situation between comparing both daughters is pretty different as well, the Governor's daughter is more like Rick's son, older and grown up and then turned at some point - you can tell Rick cares a whole ton for his son. He's practically doing this all for him at this point. The governor wants revenge for Michonne killing his daughter, but he sent Merle to kill her BEFORE she did ANYTHING to him. She RETURNED to kill the fucking Governor and ended up killing his daughter instead, while looking for him / waiting in his house. His priorities are simply about himself, he could've buried the hatchet per se between both Rick's group and his, he had that option but he chose the revenge mantra instead. And he's willing to sacrifice people in his camp to do it, I don't agree he's looking out for their best interests at all. Rick is also not intentionally cruel by comparison. He's extremely distrusting of people, but he's upfront about it at least. The governor is underhanded, puts on a guise that he's open to everyone, when really he'll murder you the second you leave camp.

As for Rick's concerns about his daughter, it's off and on you're absolutely right there, but he's mid-psychotic break. He probably doesn't even trust himself around his daughter due to his mental state, which he's starting to snap out of (somewhat). At least he has other levelminded people like Carol, Hershel's blonde daughter - looking after Judith? while he's sorta off the preserve though.

i think we're basically agreeing that both rick and the gov are bad people, but arguing on the degrees of how bad the gov is compared to rick. ill say that rick is like a Gov in training, hes not at The Gov's level of megalomania , but he is definitely on the road to it. right now rick is in his passive aggressive stage, he wont try kill you if you leave but he wouldnt cross the road to piss on you if you were on fire either.

Maester Chuk_sl said:

i think we're basically agreeing that both rick and the gov are bad people, but arguing on the degrees of how bad the gov is compared to rick. ill say that rick is like a Gov in training, hes not at The Gov's level of megalomania , but he is definitely on the road to it. right now rick is in his passive aggressive stage, he wont try kill you if you leave but he wouldnt cross the road to piss on you if you were on fire either.

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True, Rick has gone through a transformation.. his experiences have hardened/changed him a lot. But I think you see when he tells the group the truth about the Michonne deal how the 'good' Rick is still in there, he's not completely gone over like the Governor is. Which IMO makes that speech important, because it's revealing some inner character traits that still exist. He's grappling with putting the group ahead of an individual, but an individual who has proven themself and with no guarantee that this deal will even take place. I think it also illustrates how much he does care about the group, they are family at this point, all of them.. so you can see how he might travel down that Governor role but he reverses his stance on Michonne, which would have been the next step IMO to turning into the Gov if he just gave her up. In addition, he's going back on his "i'm the leader and I call the shots" type of dictator stance as well, which I think the gov. is completely different on. The gov will do what he thinks he should do, it doesn't matter who advises him otherwise - the most he'll concede is make you think he agreed/considered your option when in reality he just pretty much tuned it out. I can see where the argument of them being different shades of evil is there, but I don't think Rick has crossed that line yet, and the governor is so much further down the "road" so to speak that's a huge gulf.

more drama in this thread then the damn show.

The fact that this conversation is even occurring at all makes me realize just how badly they fucked up with the Governor on the show. They also fucked up on Rick to some extent as well, but not nearly as badly as the Gov. There should be similarities between them for sure, but the Governor should unquestionably be the worse of the two and the fact that it is even debatable sucks. They sure did bungle the whole prison/woodbury story arc pretty badly.

rick went temporarily crazy and the governor is a psychopath. while the tv version of the governor has been toned down, he and rick aren't even remotely similar.