The Zionists are whining thread

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Chris

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It will be much better if/when the land is given to the Muslim Palestinians, because they just LOVE the Christian minority of their population. Them keeping their farm will become the least of their worries..

Amazing speech by Palestinian Christian Christy Anastas, 2014 - YouTube
Even if true it doesn't do anything to make what the Israelis are doing any less wrong, in fact it makes it worse as they could easy head off anything like that by being fair rulers themselves and not causing that territory to cede.
 

Frenzied Wombat

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Even if true it doesn't do anything to make what the Israelis are doing any less wrong, in fact it makes it worse as they could easy head off anything like that by being fair rulers themselves and not causing that territory to cede.
Where did I say what they're doing is right and/or just? Either the territory belongs to Israel or it belongs to the Palestinians, and if you believe in the latter than ironically you are condemning these Christians to a far worse fate than a land grab. Doubly ironic, the mention and fact that they are "Christian" has zero bearing or relevance to the story that I can glean beyond trying to incense people into thinking "oh, the Israelis hate Christians too", when in fact it's just about land..
 

Tuco

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I'm no expert in the politics of that region of Palestine/Israel, but hasn't that family lived there peacefully for many decades without being harassed by muslims?

I guess I don't understand where the false dichotomy of giving up your land to Israel or being raped by Muslims is coming from.
 

Frenzied Wombat

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I'm no expert in the politics of that region of Palestine/Israel, but hasn't that family lived there peacefully for many decades without being harassed by muslims?

I guess I don't understand where the false dichotomy of giving up your land to Israel or being raped by Muslims is coming from.
There are only three ultimate possible realities for that region:

1) It is ruled by Israel
2) It is ruled by Hamas
3) It is ruled by the West Bank PLO

In reality #2 and #3 will never be able to exist independently without a protracted war, because as already demonstrated, even with their common hate of Israel, they can't agree on shit and are more than happy to settle for killing each other. As seen in every other Arab cesspool country as far back as time records, to as recently as yesterday, if there aren't americans/jews/Christians to kill/expel, they are more than happy to fall back on the good 'ol Sunni vs Shiite, my tribe vs your tribe, clan warfare.

So the irony is that under Israeli rule and (arguably) Israeli land, Christians are not expelled/imprisoned/killed based on their religion. The two alternate realities, just like almost every other Islamic country out there, doesn't represent a good outcome for anybody that isn't Muslim.
 

Chris

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I don't think that Christians are killed in stable Muslim countries... there are a significant amount of Christians which are also Palestinians right?
 

Tuco

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Yeah I'm not an expert on Palestinian culture, but based on that family living peacefully in Palestine for generations and some quick research I did I'm going to need proof that Palestinian Muslims are a threat to Christians.

Christianity in Palestine: Misrepresentation and Dispossession | The Electronic Intifada
article_sl said:
Today in Palestine, Christianity is experiencing what many would consider a crisis. This is not due to the growth of so-called Islamic fundamentalism or the persecution of "believers" by their Muslim neighbors, misrepresentations that are unfortunately used to distract from the realities of occupation. Instead, the plight of the Palestinian Christian is very much connected to that of the Palestinian Muslim in that both, whether in the Occupied Territories or inside Israeli itself, are experiencing daily injustices at the hands of oppressive and discriminatory policies imposed on them by the Israeli government.
I don't know your stance on the middle east and Islam in general, but it sounds like an Israeli apologist making excuses for Israel's expansionism by saying that even though Israel is stealing their land they'll be better for it somehow.
 

khalid

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Accusing someone of bias and linking to an article from electronicintifada.net. Good job!
 

Tuco

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I've never heard of the site it was just one of the first I found in 'christian palestine' =( Like I said I'm not well studied in this field, I just find it interesting.
 

Frenzied Wombat

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Here you go. There's enough factual statistics here to squash any subjectivity concerning the matter.The Disquieting Treatment of Christians by the Palestinians

Not that it's needed or anything, as I'm curious as to what muslim run nation out there embraces any religion but their own?

The irony of that whole article is that it implies Israel is "anti-Christian", when in reality Christianity (and all religions) are tolerated more in Israel than any other muslim nation.

As for being an "Apologist", I simply view the region from a triage standpoint. The arabs and the israelis will NEVER get along. If the Arabs own land the size of a football field, then the Israelis own land the size of a match book. Now the arabs say give me half your match book and we'll all get along (except for every fundamentalist group that says we want all the land and all jews dead). I personally don't believe it, do you? History certainly doesn't support these types of propositions..

In light of the fact that they will never get along, I make what to me is a very simple choice. Support the democratic country that has exported more patents, inventions, medicine, and technology in the last year than the rest of the arab world combined ( that's 8 million Israelis vs 2.1 BILLION muslims. ) or support the countries that export nothing but terrorism, murder, hate, strife, and social oppression? Choice is pretty easy for me. People like Chris from the Great British Empire can ignore the expansionist sins of his country (how recent was Ireland again?) yet points his finger at Israel over a land grab case going through the courts and calls it "apartheid"? The irony is that an Israeli arab can vote, own property, and run for office. Can a jew vote or own land in Gaza, or most muslim countries? No. I think that's a closer definition to "apartheid".

@Chris: "stable muslim country"? da fuq? You mean Jordan, living proof that if you make a peace treaty with Israel AND don't lob rockets you can have a lasting stable peace?

It's certainly "partisan", but if you really want to see just how fucked up Palestine (and the arab world in general) is check out some of the videos ripped from Arab TV onHome Page|PMW
. The "children's shows" are particularly horrendous. Once you understand that it's more important for these people to teach their children hate rather than language and math, you can understand why negotiating or sympathizing with them is entirely fruitless. This cycle of programming your children to be uneducated religious zealots is why the Arab world hasn't invented anything of worth for the last 100 years and guarantees that places like Palestine remains a backwards violent hellhole. It's more important to these people to be wrapped in the seductive melodrama that is their "eternal struggle" than it is to educate your populace and build useful things like traffic lights and government offices.
 

fanaskin

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As fucked up as Palestinians are it's a reaction to outright theft, murder and broken promises.

America (and by proxy Israel ) has been essentially cultivating the religious extremists for their own purposes, they consistantly oppose secular nationalists and prop up religious dictators in places like Saudi or Qatar, or antagonize extremists into the forefront like the ayatollah in Iran.

Israel
in 1967, Israel destroyed the source of secular Arab nationalism -- Nasser's Egypt -- which was considered a major threat and enemy by the West. It is worth remembering that there was a serious conflict at that time between the forces of radical Islamic fundamentalism, centered in Saudi Arabia -- where all the oil is -- and secular Arab nationalism, centered in Nasser's Egypt; in fact, the two countries were at war. They were fighting a kind of a proxy war in Yemen at that time. The United States and Britain were supporting the radical Islamic fundamentalism; in fact, they've rather consistently done that - supporting Saudi Arabia. And Nasserite secular nationalism was considered a serious threat, because it was recognized that it might seek to take control of the immense resources of the region and use them for regional interest, rather than allow them to be centrally controlled and exploited by the United States and its allies. So that was a major issue.

Well, Israel effectively destroyed Nasserite secular nationalism and the whole Arab nationalist movement that was centered in it. That was considered a major contribution to U.S. geopolitical strategy and also to its Saudi Arabian ally. And, in fact, that's when attitudes toward Israel changed sharply and the U.S. support for Israel -- material, diplomatic, and other -- also increased sharply. In 1970, there was another turning point. In 1970, the Jordanian army (Jordan was a strong, close U.S. ally) - the Jordanian dictatorship was essentially massacring Palestinians during what's the month that's called Black September.

And the U.S. was in favor of that; it supported that. It looked as though Syria might intervene to support the Palestinians against the attack by the Hashemite dictatorship. The U.S. didn't want that to happen. It regarded it as a threat to its Jordanian ally and also a broader threat, ultimately, to Saudi Arabia, the jewel in the crown.

While the U.S. was mired in Southeast Asia at the time -- it was right at the time, a little after the Cambodia invasion and everything was blowing up -- the U.S. couldn't do a thing about it. So, it asked Israel to mobilize its very substantial military forces and threaten Syria so that Syria would withdraw. Well, Israel did it. Syria withdrew. That was another gift to U.S. power and, in fact, U.S. aid to Israel shot up very sharply -- maybe quadrupled or something like that -- right at that time. Now at that time, that was the time when the so-called Nixon Doctrine was formulated.

A part of the Nixon Doctrine was that the U.S., of course, has to control Middle-East oil resources -- that goes much farther back -- but it will do so through local, regional allies, what were called "cops on the beat" by Melvin Laird, Secretary of Defense. So there will be local cops on the beat, which will protect the Arab dictatorships from their own populations or any external threat. And then, of course, "police headquarters" is in Washington. Well, the local cops on the beat at the time were Iran, then under the Shah, a U.S. ally; Turkey; to an extent, Pakistan; and Israel was added to that group. It was another cop on the beat. It was one of the local gendarmes that was sometimes called the periphery strategy: non-Arab states protecting the Arab dictatorships from any threat, primarily the threat of what was called radical nationalism -- independent nationalism -- meaning taking over the armed resources for their own purposes.

Well, that structure remained through the 1970s. In 1979, Iran was lost because of the overthrow of the Shah and pretty soon the Khomeini dictatorship -- clerical dictatorship -- and the U.S. once tried to overthrow that and supported Iraq's invasion of Iran, and so on. But, anyway, that "cop" [Iran] was lost and Israel's position became even stronger in the structure that remained. Furthermore, by that time, Israel was performing secondary services to the United States elsewhere in the world.
 

khalid

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Israel shouldn't exist, states based on religions shouldn't exist(israel is a jewish state) as fucked up as Palestinians are it's a reaction to outright theft, murder and broken promises.
Oh, so you don't think states based on religion should exist?

Yet here you are saying we should be friendly towards Iran.
I consider this a good move, Rapprochement with Iran would benefit america and they are more naturally compatable people to america than the saudi's ever were.
Not all states based on religions are equal.

You can take Iran and Palestine. I'll personally side with the country that doesn't oppress women, treats other religions much more equally, doesn't teach their kids to be suicide bombers and didn't break out cheering in the streets on Sept 11th 2001.
 

Big Phoenix

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It shouldnt exist period. The UN/British creating it in 1947 has got to be one of the dumbest fucking political moves in the history of mankind.
 

fanaskin

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Oh, so you don't think states based on religion should exist?

Yet here you are saying we should be friendly towards Iran.
literally israel kills people takes their land and builds homes on it, literally. Maybe if I was a white supremacist i'd be all for taking brown people's land and doing some settler colonialism.

Also it's realistic politics If I had to choose between saudi and Iran I'd choose iran, atleast they are a republic. plus the shiites live on the land where all the oil/gas is, even in iraq and saudi the land with all the oil is in shiite majority area's. Yeah I don't think any of the arab countries should be religous states but you can't fight and win every battle all at once, and frankly without deposing their leader the only alternative is to seduce them with our culture and that requires friendly relations.
 

khalid

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literally israel kills people takes their land and builds homes on it, literally.
Literally, the palestinians indoctrinate kids that if they wrap bombs around themselves and kill themselves and bunches of other people they will go to heaven. Literally.
 

fanaskin

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Literally, the palestinians indoctrinate kids that if they wrap bombs around themselves and kill themselves and bunches of other people they will go to heaven. Literally.
which I agree, but who routinely abuses and kills who? these are poor people, the insanely rich and privileged fun loving friends from israel use all kinds of machines to blow the shit out of them, training kids to bomb is brutal but cheap and effective tactic (one that worked in afghanistan for the taliban too) , people are cheap compared to helicopters and missiles.

The Gatekeepers: In New Film, Ex-Shin Bet Chiefs Denounce Occupation, Compare Israel to Nazi Germany | Democracy Now!

watch this documentry, the systemic abuse israel lays down is criminally insane, and anyone living in those conditions I forgive for being brutal honestly.


Watch The Gatekeepers online - Watch Movies Online, Full Movies, Download Movie2k.to Movie4k.to

This is all the former heads of Israels secret service agency calledSHIN BET(fbi/cia/tagetted killing ect) ALL OF THEM calling israel a nazi state and they show how and why that is.

"The Gatekeepers." The film brings together six former heads of Israel?s internal security agency, the Shin Bet, collectively speaking out for the first time ever. They detail their methods against Palestinian militants and civilians in the Occupied Territories, including targeted killings, torture, recruiting informants, and the suppression of mass protests during two intifadas. But in doing so, they also criticize the occupation they were assigned with defending and warn that successive Israeli governments have endangered their country?s future by refusing to make peace. "We are making the lives of millions unbearable, into prolonged human suffering, [and] it kills me," Carmi Gillon says in the film. "[We?ve become] a brutal occupation force similar to the Germans in World War II," adds Avraham Shalom.
the Israelis don't want peace, they'd rather things go on the way they are so they could kill more arabs, they know they are outnumbered in the region.

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they face a demographic time bomb
Jews may soon be outnumbered by Palestinians in Israel

Israel faces two existential threats, Kerry warns | JPost | Israel News

the "demographic time bomb" that is the Palestinian question threaten Israel's existence, Kerry tells Saban Forum.
 

Frenzied Wombat

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It shouldnt exist period. The UN/British creating it in 1947 has got to be one of the dumbest fucking political moves in the history of mankind.
Oh yes, it was extremely dumb, but the reality is the land was GIVEN to them, and the emigrants had no where else to go because no other country wanted them. This isn't even a case of US or British imperialism/expansionism, this was a case of "live here or live nowhere". Imho they've done the best they can considering their neighbors. If the land had been given to the US/GB, the Gaza and West Bank would have been napalmed 100 times over by now. Shit, I watched "the sixties" last night and they showed during the Vietnam war that if there was a sniper in a village, they wouldn't even bother sending in infantry, they just napalmed the whole village, at the rate of 25,000 north Vietnamese civilian lives a month. Who the hell are we to condemn the Israelis when rockets rain down at 8am because Hamas knows that's when their kids go to school?

So we can lament the stupidity of this historical incident, or face the reality of the current situation, and the reality is that Israel actually contributes to the world while the Arabs do not. If Israel ceased to exist and Palestine took its place, we'd lose a democracy and technological innovation in exchange for what, more terrorism? A people that hate us? What Arab precedent has demonstrated that Palestine would suddenly become some modern democratic peaceful nation? Anyone?

Also, even the Palestinian claim to the region is weak. When Egypt owned Gaza there was no cry of the Palestinians. When Jordan owned the west bank, they certainly didn't give a shit about the Palestinians. It was only once Israel figured out how to grow oranges the size of basketballs in the desert that suddenly the Palestinians popped up crying for their long lost nation. From Hamas leadership itself:


"The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a
Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle
against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality
today there is no difference between Jordanians,
Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and
tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of
a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand
that we posit the existence of a distinct 'Palestinian
people' to oppose Zionism.
 

Frenzied Wombat

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which I agree, but who routinely abuses and kills who? these are poor people, the insanely rich and privileged fun loving friends from israel use all kinds of machines to blow the shit out of them, training kids to bomb is brutal but cheap and effective tactic (one that worked in afghanistan for the taliban too) , people are cheap compared to helicopters and missiles.

The Gatekeepers: In New Film, Ex-Shin Bet Chiefs Denounce Occupation, Compare Israel to Nazi Germany | Democracy Now!

watch this documentry, the systemic abuse israel lays down is criminally insane, and anyone living in those conditions I forgive for being brutal honestly.


Watch The Gatekeepers online - Watch Movies Online, Full Movies, Download Movie2k.to Movie4k.to

This is all the former heads of Israels secret service agency calledSHIN BET(fbi/cia/tagetted killing ect) ALL OF THEM calling israel a nazi state and they show how and why that is.



the Israelis don't want peace, they'd rather things go on the way they are so they could kill more arabs, they know they are outnumbered in the region.

Advertisement
Advertisement

they face a demographic time bomb
Jews may soon be outnumbered by Palestinians in Israel

Israel faces two existential threats, Kerry warns | JPost | Israel News
I think I understand you now. All the world's problems are because of US/British colonialism/imperialism and it's now understandable that a certain ethnicity trains its young to blow themselves up in light of the transgressions that were historically perpetrated on their culture. It's all our fault. And while they still suffer the after effects of such, I'm still waiting on non-muslim African nations to start rolling out TV channels focused on martyring your children to kill British/Belgians. Hint, it's not colonialism that has caused these problems, it's a religion whose precepts are diametrically opposed to modern life and civil liberties.
 

fanaskin

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please, you want to white wash Israels hands anyone who pays attention to the history of the region comes away with how overwhelmingly one sided the conflict actually is, and two how the israelis have been blocking the peace process for decades, the Jews kill infinatly more arabs than vice versa, the jews are also lesser in number, per capita the jews kill more arabs than vice versa, who is the "savage ones" again? so fucking what if they use kids, everything's fair in war.

the Israelis are the more savage people
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