The Zionists are whining thread

The overall tactic of Hamas is crystal clear at this point. In an age where anybody with a cell phone can capture the brutal image of war, where any photo (even if it isn't from this conflict) can make its way around the world in five minutes, and its taken as gospel without any vetting or context, the one with the bigger stick is destined to lose the moral battle. Hamas has quickly realized this fact, and in tandem with their utter disregard for their own populace, are in a perfect position to maximize this phenomena's potential. I've watched hours of coverage on every network from BBC to Fox, and not *once* have I seen a picture of a Hamas "militant", whether he be dead or alive--only "civilians". Outside of Israeli military B&W camera footage proving that rockets are being launched from schools, I have yet to see one live video from reporters or civilians demonstrating the same. Why? Well, there's no "freedom of the press" in Gaza for one. Though Hamas is perfectly happy to show off dead bodies, theythreatenany reporter that dares mention human shields, and they certainly aren't allowed to film armed Hamas members. Then, their whole population isinstructedby Hamas to state that all casualties are "innocent civilians" and to not film any rockets being fired from civilian areas. Through control of their populace, tight control over foreign media, and a rabid desire to provide footage of dead bodies (which is free ratings boost to news producers), along with a gazillion arabs across the world reposting propaganda, Israel is destined to lose the moral war here. Meanwhile, Hamas is laughing its ass off. They've refilled their coffers with Zakat money and Qatari funds, their leadership is sitting on private beaches in Turkey and Qatar, and they will make boatloads of money off all the foreign aid cash coming in. Not to mention the fact that despite the civilian casualties, demolished infrastructure, and mostly ineffective rocket attacks, Hamas support is at its highest in years. It's fucking crazy. Meanwhile, they've managed to convince half the world that they are some humanitarian organization despite their nightly sermons to their entire population that they will exterminate every man, woman, and child in Israel.

If the world wants this to end they have to step-up and go disarm Hamas without the Israelis being involved, but of course nobody will do that because they know they'd end up in the same, or even worse situation. When one side tries to abide by modern ethics, while the other doesn't, your idea of "freedom" is what gets you fucked.

Chanur_sl said:

What point did you raise? You said both sides are bad then placed the bulk of the blame on Israel because they are better at war than Palestine. Well thanks for that newsflash my friend.

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The post I replied to had the anti palestine stuff, I was just pointing out that both sides operate in a similar way.

Chris_sl said:

What would happen after a total Palestinian victory is a great point though, yeah it would be far worse and just end up part of ISIS. Israel has the power to go for some kind of one state solution and raise these people out of ignorance and poverty through education?

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So you think Israel should do a one-state solution, because the palestinians are filled with ignorance? Unless you can educate them out of being muslims, that isn't going to work. What WOULD happen in that situation is, the palestinian majority of a one-state solution would vote the jews out of power and rights and start working on genocide.

Gotta go, heading out to buy a car, but I just wanted to say that anyone talking about a one-state solution is either incredibly naive or lying about wanting peace. The only possible hope for peace at this point is a two-state solution, which COULD happen if the palestinians would renounce violence. Hell, they would already have their state if they had any leader like MLK or Ghandi. With the history of the jews, the populace of Israel would go crazy having to crack down on peaceful protests.

However, instead of using the history of the jews oppression against them, Hamas and the radicals do the opposite by openly advocating genocide and saying shit like "The holocaust was wrong, but we will do a real one". Yes, that is actual shit that Hamas says. Holocaust denial wrapped up in talks of wanting to do it for real.

khalid_sl said:

So you think Israel should do a one-state solution, because the palestinians are filled with ignorance? Unless you can educate them out of being muslims, that isn't going to work. What WOULD happen in that situation is, the palestinian majority of a one-state solution would vote the jews out of power and rights and start working on genocide.

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Yeah, one of the big problems is that the farfar-left (basically the majority of Europe and some of the US) somehow thinks of Hamas as some sort of noble "resistance group" rather than a radical Islamic group bent on creating a pure Islamic state. I had a debate with a pro-pally gay guy yesterday and he had no idea that he'd be stoned in the street for being gay by the very civilians he was crying out for. He just thinks of them in terms of say, the IRA, when we're talking a whole different level of beast here. It also doesn't help that the batshit crazy far right are actually somewhat correct when it comes to worrying about these groups. People in the west apply their own framework of thought and morality when it comes to "resistance", without understanding that these people, and their beliefs, are so ingrained via religious education and brainwashing, that giving them a big hug and capitulating to their demands isn't going to work. It certainly isn't working for Europe and their growing muslim population.

Here's a great example of what exactly you're dealing with here that the majority of the west just doesn't understand. The concept of what this average Palestinian woman says is so foreign to anybody that grew up in the west, they can't see what the Israelis are really dealing with here. This lunacy isn't the "fringe", it's mainstream. Her religion is more important than her life, or the life of her children. She doesn't even cite Israel as the reason, just her "religion". If this is how your average Palestinian woman thinks, than what about Hammas?

Moral asymmetry in the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict - YouTube

Arguing which side has moral superiority in this conflict is thouroughly pointless. Regardless of which side "wins" that comparison, you're still basically comparing syphilis to AIDS. The leaders of both sides are guilty of countless war crimes and there's no punishment you could ever impose that would make up for it.

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Xequecal_sl said:

Arguing which side has moral superiority in this conflict is thouroughly pointless. Regardless of which side "wins" that comparison, you're still basically comparing syphilis to AIDS. The leaders of both sides are guilty of countless war crimes and there's no punishment you could ever impose that would make up for it.

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The purpose of the post wasn't to demonstrate moral equivalency or superiority. It was to show that the Western trend to look at Hamas or the Palestinians as some sort of group that can be rationed with using Western concepts is false. If your "enemy" is saving your child's life and that olive branch not only doesn't open you up to the concept of "sharing", but you still hope that your "saved son" goes on to be a suicide bomber, how are you supposed to negotiate peace?

Just so its clear....

Hamas growth was fostered by the Israelis as a counterbalance to the PLOHow Israel Helped to Spawn Hamas - WSJ

The PLO (the Boogie Ooogie man before Hamas) almost made peace before Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by what was pretty much a plot from the Israeli Right Wing.Avishai Raviv - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So yeah... There COULD have been a lasting peace. It wasnt easy, and it takes alot of time and courage.... but it can be done.

And listen... Hamas isnt the worst thing in the world. Its a klepocracy. Its leader doesnt even live in Gaza, he lives in a motherfucking 5 star hotel in Qatar. Its predictable. Its leaders have no real interest in doing anything to upset the status quo that is making them mountains of cash. Israel knows full well that if they removed Hamas they would create a power vacuum that would probably be filled in by something like ISIS that would REALLY do things to fuck with Israel, not just make a half hearted show of it like Hamas.

You think Al-Queda or other serious ACTUAL terrorists groups wouldn't love to get their hands on the cash cow that is Gaza?