The Zionists are whining thread

Yup, collective punishment is wrong, but it's very hard to carry out "selective" punishment when it's practically impossible to distinguish the terrorist from the civilian. Furthermore, selective punishment doesn't work against someone that doesn't value their life. How do you selectively punish a suicide bomber, or someone that doesn't care if they die? The strategy of bulldozing the homes of terrorists and tossing their whole family onto the street is meant as a deterrent against someone that doesn't value their own lives, but may value the fact that their family will be rendered homeless by their actions. I am not condoning this tactic at all, and I do consider collective punishment a crime, but if I was looking for a way to deter an aggressor that didn't value their own lives, I can't guarantee that I wouldn't do the same thing.

The main instrument of collective punishment is the blockade. Very little is allowed through, and the blockade applies to far more things than just weapons and items that could be potentially used as weapons. Anything that could be considered a luxury item is banned, books are banned, concrete/asphalt/anything that can maintain infrastructure is banned, even most types of food are banned. It's literally designed to keep the Palestinian population in a state of constant hunger and misery in order to punish them for electing Hamas and pressure them into rejecting Hamas. There is very little possible justification for it. Hell, when Cuba aimed fucking nuclear weapons at us and we blockaded them, we still let through everything that wasn't nuclear weapons related.

Xequecal_sl said:

The main instrument of collective punishment is the blockade. Very little is allowed through, and the blockade applies to far more things than just weapons and items that could be potentially used as weapons. Anything that could be considered a luxury item is banned, books are banned, concrete/asphalt/anything that can maintain infrastructure is banned, even most types of food are banned. It's literally designed to keep the Palestinian population in a state of constant hunger and misery in order to punish them for electing Hamas and pressure them into rejecting Hamas. There is very little possible justification for it. Hell, when Cuba aimed fucking nuclear weapons at us and we blockaded them, we still let through everything that wasn't nuclear weapons related.

Click to expand...

We've been down this road before-- how are the gazans in a state of "constant hunger" when they're also the 8th most obese population in the world? How do they have allthisif all those items aren't allowed through? Israel greatly loosened the restrictions after June 2010, which of course has once again bitten them in the ass--books and all food have been allowed through since 2010.

fanaskin_sl said:

because why?

Click to expand...

I wanted to check the article; so I went deeper and looked at a few of their specific dates in the links. These attacks were in Feb. Your site says they were "unprovoked"--also states there was "no noticeable retaliation".

*******************************

1. An Israeli airstrike on 16 February ultimately left 11 injured. The Israeli military "said in a statement that it targeted two sites in the Gaza Strip in response to rocket fire." Note that there was no noticeable retaliation with projectile fire from Gaza in the immediate aftermath of this Israeli strike.

[2] After Israeli strikes which caused casualties on 19 February and another on 24 February, Palestinians in Gaza responded with projectile fire in the first significant uptick during this period.

***************************

Actual history says?

********************************

January 13 Two rockets were launched to the Northern Negev desert, near Sderot. There were no injuries or damage reported.[10]
January 16 At 2am, five rockets were fired into Israel. The Iron Dome eliminated all rockets, as they would have hit Ashkelon. No injuries or damage were reported.
January 30 A rocket exploded in a non-inhabited area of Sdot Negev Regional Council. No injuries or damage were reported
January 31 From the Sinai Peninsula a rocket was launched towards Eilat. The Iron Dome intercepted the rocket. The radical Salafi organization Ansar Bait al-Maqdis took responsibility for the launch.
February 6 A Color Red siren alerting residents of a rocket launch from Gaza has been sounded in Ashkelon, followed by an explosion. A further rocket launched from the Gaza Strip exploded in the Eshkol Regional Council. No injuries or damage were reported.
February 8 A red alert siren sounded in Sha'ar Hanegev and Sdot Negev Regional Councils. A rocket hit an open area in Sha'ar HaNegev. No injuries or damages were reported.
February 10 Palestinians fired a rocket into the Ashkelon Coast Regional Council, triggering sirens. After nightfall, a second rocket was launched into the same area. No injuries or damage were reported. Israel responded with an air strike on an underground rocket launcher in the central Gaza Strip.
February 14 In the evening, Palestinian Militants launched two rockets into Israel. One landed in the Ashkelon Coast Regional Council, the other in the Eshkol Regional Council. No injuries or damage were reported.
16 total rockets fired, 3 confirmed impacts in Residential area, 5 unconfirmed explosion in unpopulated, rest intercepted by Iron Dome. So, while no damage, it's painfully obvious the Israeli's were responding to attacks; not simply "breaking the cease fire, just cause".

**********************************

But lets take a gander at the next date. Now this entry CLEARLY states there were NO provocation in this period. (And, if you'll notice, they even admit Israel didn't respond until mid march.)....

**********************************

3. Between peaks 2 and 3 there is almost no activity until Israel launched an unprovoked air strike on Gaza killing two and injuring others. This triggered a response from Gaza. This peak was the highest of the year at the point and in the ensuing days tens of rockets were launched and Israeli strikes inflicted many more Palestinian casualties.(This date encompasses mid march)

***********************************

Actual history says?

***********************************

March 1In the night on Mount Hermon were heard loud blasts. The IDF checked the area and found the remains of two rockets near an IDF outpost. No injuries or damage were reported.
March 5 Palestinians fired a rocket towards the Sha'ar Hanegev Regional Council, triggering sirens in local communities. The projectile landed within the Gaza Strip. Later, after nightfall, a second rocket was fired at Sderot. No injuries or damage were reported in either attack.
March 11 After nightfall, Palestinians fired a rocket into the Sha'ar Hanegev Regional Council. The projectile landed in an open area, causing no injuries or damage.
March 12-14 Palestinian Islamic Jihad Militants fired at least 60 rockets at Israeli cities and towns, in the heaviest barrage since 2012. No direct injuries were reported, but a 57-year-old woman was lightly injured while taking cover in Sderot. At least eight rockets fell within communities, with one exploding near a gas station and another near a public library. Explosions rocked the cities of Sderot and Netivot, and sirens sounded as far away as Beersheba.


****************************************

23 attacks, 65 mortars/rockets in all; now, I will say this, it seems a bulk of these came in the last entry. But from what BOTH articles are telling us, this was an exchange. What ispurebullshit is that the Palestinians did not fire anything until Israel attacked; it's obvious that Palestine attacked multiple times before the "big exchange" began.

Lets do one more.

***********************************

4, 5, and 6. On 30 March one man was killed and some 30 others were injured as Israel suppressed protests in Gaza near the Erez crossing.There was no remarkable projectile response.

************************

Actual history says?

*****************************

April 1 Residents heard massive detonations. Three rockets were fired at Eilat, which were intercepted by the Iron Dome.
April 3 The "Code Red" siren was heard 3 times in a row in the evening. No rocket landing were identified, therefore the rockets came down within Gaza.
April 4 In the Hof Ashkelon Regional Council a rocket exploded in the open area, close to the border fence. No injuries or damage were reported.
April 5 Militants in Gaza fired a rocket into Israel. No injuries or damage were reported.
April 6 In the Sha'ar HaNegev Regional Council, near a kibbuz, was heard an explosion of a mortar shell. No red alert siren sounded before. No one was hurt, no damage reported.
April 9 In the early afternoon a Color Red siren alerting residents of a rocket launch from Gaza has been sounded in Hof Ashkelon Regional Council. The rocket came down within the Gaza strip. Later in the evening a mortar rocket hit a kibbutz in the Sha'ar Hanegev Regional Council. It caused material damage, but no one was injured. No Red Siren sounded prior to the rockets landing.

(Source, Wikipedia, but I checked the first ten sources and found news articles for them all.)

After this point, both rocket and plane activity increased dramatically--it was essentially the dissolution of the Cease Fire. Now, if Palestinians want to argue that their rockets don't cause damage and the "response" was not proportional, or completely outrageous? That might at least be somewhat truthful (Though I'd disagree with it, no one should have to suffer through weekly air raid sirens.) But this article, Fana, is absolutely, 100% unadulterated bullshit. They straight up lie and seem to discount rocket fire that doesn't cause any death (I can't even say not injury, because two of the attacks injured people.)...The fact is, without the Iron Dome, the intercepted mortars probably would have killed people (The Iron dome doesn't seem to shoot ones that don't track toward cities.)

Again, I'm not trying to take sides--but that article is PURE propaganda of the highest order. "Unprovoked" must mean "we only shot AT you, we didn't hit you!Whyso mad, bro??!"

You can easily call Israel guilty of putting settlements out there as "bait" (Which I agree with); BUT you can also just as easily accuse Hamas of allowing rockets to be fired that theyKNOWwon't cause damage, because they know without casualties it won't make international news--which allows a PR on spin on Israeli response, making it look "unprovoked"(As you can see here.) Don't underestimate Hamas, man--they are savvy little bastards (Especially because you can see they hold back and poke the bear very cautiously, until they provoke a response and then run and cry--it's like an annoying little brother playing the "I'm not touching you game".)

fanaskin_sl said:

I concede then that chart is wrong

Click to expand...

That is the problem with all of this shit. It's extremly hard to find any actual data that isn't being cleaned by one side or the other.

That's why you have to go to direct sources. If you see an infographic you can easily assume that it's not overstated, it's just wrong.

All factual sources will slant so you might as well get the pure, official slant. And then do a little bit of thinkin' for yourself. Asking questions such like, "Now why is it that we only see pictures of dead children, and not dead soldiers?"

The first casualty of war is the truth and whatnot.

It wouldn't surprise me if half the soldiers ARE children.

Faltigoth_sl said:

It wouldn't surprise me if half the soldiers ARE children.

Click to expand...

Well of course, why would they use adult soldiers who have to trudge all the way over to the school to get to their arms/missle storage areas when they can cut out all that and just use children who are already at school.

Al-Mathaf Recreational and Cultural house (Gaza City, Gaza) - Hotel Reviews - TripAdvisor

It's starting to sound and look more and more to me that when things actually start getting good, Hamas actually wants to create the "ghetto" image and turn back the clock. Look at the comments/reviews/pics for this and other hotels.

There seems to be a pwoer struggle between the 3 arms of the Hamas and neither of them profits from ending the conflict at the moment. The Kassam has no interest anyway and neither Hanijja or Maschal want to look weak and give in. Sucks for the population, that they are paying the price for internal power struggle.

Hey, at least he can do something right. Even if it's read a script that's something.

Whole thing is silly. Hell just reading the news about it, its like two kids bickering over who started it first. Which sucks as there is no way to know except the troops/militants that were there and they are controlled by their superiors , who put all the PR spins on it.

What exactly is this intense desire to have land in Palestine about? Is it because the Talmud indicates that the land itself is so holy that merely walking in it can gain you a place in the 'World to Come'?

People are dying, on the physical earth they actually inhabit, for the hope that they go to a better place, in death? Hm, ok. Makes sense that anyone emotionally involved in this kind of idea cannot be made to see reason.

I think I've said this before but when I look at the title of this thread I wonder, "What do the Zionists actuallywin, if they win?"

Well at this point it's because that's where a full generation of them have been living for a generation. Israel started very much smaller than it is. But you know, the arabs tried to blitzkreig them and failed miserably.

So for the initial settlement, yeah, it was Zionism and the biblical homeland. But it was small in scope. But it hasn't been that in a long time.

The zionists aren't winning. They already won 50 years ago. And you can see exactly what they won, no need to wonder.