Vanessa's Tranny AMA Blog Thread

chaos · Aug 28, 2019

maskedmelon said:
Gosh, I'm sorry, Vanessa, I had thought you were advocating for puberty blockers, but it seems you're just insisting that people should consult medical professionals who specialize in gender issues for guidance? I think at face value under most conditions that approach makes a lot of sense, but I also think it is vitally important to look at the research onself, especially with an issue as politicized as transgenderism. And as that study i linked indicates (along with others), a lot of perceived gender dysphoria resolves following puberty.

Intentional or not, your argument is a clever way of getting people to indirectly adopt the position of "gender is a social construct." I think it makes more sense to consider prepubescent children as somewhat genderless though with regard to expected behavior. Certainly they've undergone a level of differentiation in vitro, giving them natural inclinations toward things or people for example. However, they are not subject to the wild hormonal disparities of adult males and females and associated tendencies.

I also don't want to discount the idea that some of what we consider as manly or ladylike is learned behavior. Some of it very much is, but the idea that a majority of it is or that all associated tendencies should be observable in children who aren't completely developed is a little silly.

To some extent, gender is a social construct. There's some limitation to that concept, but the process of transition largely seems like a social/cultural one, though we focus on the physical. The person assumes a constructed template of <gender> first, before anything physical manifests. It's really interesting, actually, and cool in that maybe people who otherwise would have been unhappy and ostracized can find some acceptance and happiness. But this business of diagnosing children, sending kids to psychologists based on nebulous "gender behaviors", that's not cool.

My understanding of Vanessa's position is (hoping to fastrtack this convo...) that she acknowledges the reality that 80% of these kids with gender dysphoria will grow out of it, while NOT acknowledging the harm that could come to these children if they were put on puberty blockers. But she states that the treatment should only be applied to "the real trannies", so the 20% I am assuming she means, and acknowledges that there is no objective way to really test this. But again, does not seem to believe that applying puberty blockers to the 80% would be harmful. Broad strokes, anyway.

maskedmelon · Aug 28, 2019

chaos said:
To some extent, gender is a social construct. There's some limitation to that concept, but the process of transition largely seems like a social/cultural one, though we focus on the physical. The person assumes a constructed template of <gender> first, before anything physical manifests. It's really interesting, actually, and cool in that maybe people who otherwise would have been unhappy and ostracized can find some acceptance and happiness. But this business of diagnosing children, sending kids to psychologists based on nebulous "gender behaviors", that's not cool.

My understanding of Vanessa's position is (hoping to fastrtack this convo...) that she acknowledges the reality that 80% of these kids with gender dysphoria will grow out of it, while NOT acknowledging the harm that could come to these children if they were put on puberty blockers. But she states that the treatment should only be applied to "the real trannies", so the 20% I am assuming she means, and acknowledges that there is no objective way to really test this. But again, does not seem to believe that applying puberty blockers to the 80% would be harmful. Broad strokes, anyway.

If by "some limitations," you mean "contributes modestly," you'd be on point. The idea that a majority or even plurality of the differences between men and women is somehow socially contrived is a fantasy. Beyond anatomical form and function, there are very real differences in biology, physiology and cognition from tendencies toward agreeableness and aggression to the ways in which we perceive and process information.

The most compelling explanation for teansgenderism itself is evidenced in structural differences between male and female brains with transgendered individuals possessing structures with a tendency toward those of the opposite sex.

Children aren't just programmed by society to behave like men or women once they mature because they present as such. They behave like men and women once they mature because that is what they are. Of course society plays a role in shaping human behavior, but it is just one of many influences, some more significant, some less. We aren't not just blank slates. We are incredibly complex machines.

chaos · Aug 28, 2019

Honestly, this part of the conversation gets beyond what I am really interested in understanding, like the difference between gender and sex and the different expressions and reasons for that. Like, I find it interesting that a person would transition, and it's interesting that people who plan to transition begin expressing those gender traits before any kind of treatment is done. But I'm not going to go get a PhD so I can debate with Vanessa on the internet, so that's pretty much where I get off.

iannis · Aug 28, 2019

I don't think it should be legal even on medical advice. There exists NO situation in which a regimen of puberty blockers will save a life. The motive is not biological, it's sociological.

This means it can ONLY be exploitative. This is the wrong tool. That's not a guess. At this point we can make educated observations.

Erronius · Aug 28, 2019

You guys.

This thread.

pysek · Aug 29, 2019

Bubbles · Aug 29, 2019

pysek said:
View attachment 221025

Oh I know. Many many people eat beef but only a very few enjoy the tender succulent child meat

pysek · Aug 29, 2019

Bubbles said:
Oh I know. Many many people eat beef but only a very few enjoy the tender succulent child meat

chaos · Aug 29, 2019

iannis said:
I don't think it should be legal even on medical advice. There exists NO situation in which a regimen of puberty blockers will save a life. The motive is not biological, it's sociological.

This means it can ONLY be exploitative. This is the wrong tool. That's not a guess. At this point we can make educated observations.

Question, just as a thought experiment, I don't think this should be done as treatment for children period.

But if they had a way to test and validate, 100%, yes this child has gender dysphoria, do you think that changes things at all? I'm sympathetic to the plight of these people, and can even understand the argument that going through puberty as the "wrong" gender would cause them harm. But if we're all in agreement that this is a mental health issue, I wonder if encouraging acceptance isn't causing harm. You wouldn't tell a schizophrenic that the voices were real. But how else do you help these people?

Punko · Aug 29, 2019

chaos said:
But if we're all in agreement that this is a mental health issue, I wonder if encouraging acceptance isn't causing harm. You wouldn't tell a schizophrenic that the voices were real. But how else do you help these people?

I've asked the same question maybe 50-70 pages ago.

The best possible solution I can see is to keep this out of media, to outlaw promotion of the concept, and to treat the issue with discretion.

Given the suicide rates attached to the issue, convincing as many people as possible that they are not transgenders, seems like something the medical sector should feel obligated to do.

Unfortunately ethics don't generate revenue, only treatments do.

Punko · Aug 29, 2019

chaos : in that same string of posts I also mentioned that these things should not be discussed with people that have taken steps in the transgender process, since we can't reasonably expect them to be able to objectively judge the matter.

Even if we somehow managed to convince a transgender that they were wrong and shouldn't have changed genders, they'd suffer a severe crisis with its own negative effects.

This scenario has no positive outcomes.

maskedmelon · Aug 29, 2019

chaos said:
Question, just as a thought experiment, I don't think this should be done as treatment for children period.

But if they had a way to test and validate, 100%, yes this child has gender dysphoria, do you think that changes things at all? I'm sympathetic to the plight of these people, and can even understand the argument that going through puberty as the "wrong" gender would cause them harm. But if we're all in agreement that this is a mental health issue, I wonder if encouraging acceptance isn't causing harm. You wouldn't tell a schizophrenic that the voices were real. But how else do you help these people?

I think emphasis should be placed on helping individuals cultivate a sense of self worth and identify with their natural sex in positive ways. The way things are currently structured, one is rewarded most for affirming delusion and others are maligned for not engaging the falsehood amicably. It's wrong.

Like so much in medicine, it does nothing to treat the ailment. It only seeks to alleviate specific symptoms while allowing the condition itself to fester. You don't feel happy as your current sex? Convince a therapist that you are incapable of existing happily as you are and they will give you what you want. This very directly encourages embracing the delusion and validating it with as many last experiences as possible to avoid being rejected as "Not a True Tranny" and lumped into the class-tranny/weirdo category, rather than contextualizing those experiences as existing along a spectrum of gender-specific/trending behaviors.

I don't see any issue with stable individuals transitioning any point in their lives. I think that's a beautiful thing if people are able to express themselves more freely and comfortably, but I think Ian imperative that those who do so recognize the abnormality of it and get comfy with the idea that ignore won't be popular with everyone. Everyone who I have seen transition is far from stable though, before and after.

Ideally, people who suffer dysphoria could realistically morph into whatever they'd like, but that presently is not possible. Given enough resources one can come very, very close in appearance and presentation, but one will never achieve what is sought unless the need/desire is rooted something more superficial like narcissism or fetish. Given a good transition, you can get acceptance from strangers, but intimacy becomes more challenging because you have to share your story and then people feel misled. And it's understandable :/

It is far healthier in the long run, much less costly and so very beneficial in general to learn to live happily in one's own skin.

maskedmelon · Aug 29, 2019

I should add that I really want people to be happy, but I think allowing children to walk down this path before they are fully able to comprehend the consequences is dangerous. Adults have a hard enough time with that.

Punko · Aug 29, 2019

maskedmelon said:
I think emphasis should be placed on helping individuals cultivate a sense of self worth and identify with their natural sex in positive ways. The way things are currently structured, one is rewarded most for affirming delusion and others are maligned for not engaging the falsehood amicably. It's wrong.

Like so much in medicine, it does nothing to treat the ailment. It only seeks to alleviate specific symptoms while allowing the condition itself to fester. You don't feel happy as your current sex? Convince a therapist that you are incapable of existing happily as you are and they will give you what you want. This very directly encourages embracing the delusion and validating it with as many last experiences as possible to avoid being rejected as "Not a True Tranny" and lumped into the class-tranny/weirdo category, rather than contextualizing those experiences as existing along a spectrum of gender-specific/trending behaviors.

I don't see any issue with stable individuals transitioning any point in their lives. I think that's a beautiful thing if people are able to express themselves more freely and comfortably, but I think Ian imperative that those who do so recognize the abnormality of it and get comfy with the idea that ignore won't be popular with everyone. Everyone who I have seen transition is far from stable though, before and after.

Ideally, people who suffer dysphoria could realistically morph into whatever they'd like, but that presently is not possible. Given enough resources one can come very, very close in appearance and presentation, but one will never achieve what is sought unless the need/desire is rooted something more superficial like narcissism or fetish. Given a good transition, you can get acceptance from strangers, but intimacy becomes more challenging because you have to share your story and then people feel misled. And it's understandable :/

It is far healthier in the long run, much less costly and so very beneficial in general to learn to live happily in one's own skin.

I'm going to reply to this after I catch up with my

Vanessa reading.

iannis · Aug 29, 2019

chaos said:
Question, just as a thought experiment, I don't think this should be done as treatment for children period.

But if they had a way to test and validate, 100%, yes this child has gender dysphoria, do you think that changes things at all? I'm sympathetic to the plight of these people, and can even understand the argument that going through puberty as the "wrong" gender would cause them harm. But if we're all in agreement that this is a mental health issue, I wonder if encouraging acceptance isn't causing harm. You wouldn't tell a schizophrenic that the voices were real. But how else do you help these people?

Yeah, if we could devise that test and have certainty (as close as you can practically get, nothing is -truly- asbsolute) in the outcome i'd be on board with it. Absolutely. At that point you've identified a malformation and it's no different than fixing a hairlip or a clubfoot.

But that's kind of the problem. We can all look at physical defects and agree they're defects. I mean six toes on one foot or webbed fingers or duplicated radial vasclature (the body does that, people grow veins that go nowhere) may not significantly impact your life or be worth the effort of correction, but we can at least say "yeah, that's a defect" and not have that be a value judgement. It's simply an observational judgement. You're getting into some dark territory doing that with something as vague as a childs sexuality. But sure it's dark. The suicide rate is dark. If you can reduce that significantly and reliably by targeted treatment early in life then even though it's dark you will have accomplished a good thing. If you can't you will be commiting an atrocity.

I just don't think hormones are the way to do it. Early indicators are not positive enough for me to see a value in the continuation of the experiment. But yeah, I don't think we should just stop or give up. Just this ain't the way. Not yet.

Punko · Aug 29, 2019

19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animalsa nd all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature,that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals.

But for Adam[f] no suitable helper was found. 21 So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs[g] and then closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib[h] he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

23 The man said,

“This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called ‘woman,’
for she was taken out of man.”
24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.

25 Adam and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.

26 Adams wife had a dick

Any devoted Christians want to guess which of the above wasn't in the holy writings?

iannis · Aug 29, 2019

If you could fix mild, functional autism... would you?

I mean that's a hard fucking question and I'm not trying to be an asshole because I do remember about your daughter. It's actually why I ask it. But I mean would you? I'm positive you've thought about it. If she can be happy and productive but she's always gonna be a little bit off, she's always going to be subject to those fits... would you fix it?

There's a threshold there. It's a personal threshold. I'm not claiming to have the only right answer. It's a tough one.

It's not that these two things are equal, but they're similar enough where the questions can inform each other I think.

MusicForFish · Aug 29, 2019

Leave the kids to be KIDS for fuck sakes.
They only get to be kids once. Let them have thier time to "just be" without all the bullshit.
Maybe we can do what was working before all this nonsense.
Let them develop naturally.
WITHOUT PUSHING THEM TO MAKE A MAJOR LIFE ALTERING DECISION when many of them still PISS THE BED.
Fuck sakes.
If they're attracted to the opposite sex (generalizing), great! Support them, love them, whatever. No need to fucking flaunt it as some sort of merit badge (parents). Welcome to millions of other parents with gay kids.
As a society, America is down with all the weird, wacky. Just dont be a fucking cunt or PREACHER/PRIEST. It's not a goddamn religion.
And leave the kids out of it.
I rail fucking hard against children being abused in any form. That includes Mental Abuse and Emotional Abuse. And any asshole that does this shit to CHILDREN is committing both.

Sorry for the rant. Up for 3 days and quite grumpy.

Carry on.

Punko · Aug 29, 2019

iannis said:
If you could fix mild, functional autism... would you?

I mean that's a hard fucking question and I'm not trying to be an asshole because I do remember about your daughter. It's actually why I ask it. But I mean would you? I'm positive you've thought about it. If she can be happy and productive but she's always gonna be a little bit off, she's always going to be subject to those fits... would you fix it?

There's a threshold there. It's a personal threshold. I'm not claiming to have the only right answer. It's a tough one.

It's not that these two things are equal, but they're similar enough where the questions can inform each other I think.

We aren't talking about autism, nor about a fix.

Giving puberty blockers to children makes them infertile.

iannis · Aug 29, 2019

Punko said:
We aren't talking about autism, nor about a fix.

Giving puberty blockers to children makes them infertile.

Chaos' thought experiment is along those lines. It's an ethical question.

I agree this current madness is a sick form of eugenics masquerading as compassion.

Vanessa's Tranny AMA Blog Thread

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