Why do men keep putting me in the Girlfriend-zone?

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Tanoomba

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tl;dr over-representation of female victimization promote double standard and negativity of female "sex." Objectification should be treated gender neutral and appropriated without victimhood. Simplistic assessment of pop culture (i.e. women suffer because they get objectified) only exasperate the existing issue and only expand confirmation bias among the women and men.
Did you read what you linked? The "double standard" is not about saying women get sexually objectified while men don't. It's about calling a sexually active woman a slut while calling a sexually active male a stud (which feminists hate). The study points out that this practice is perhaps not as prevalent in society as we assume it is, which is good. However, it points out that we are led to believe this is a common attitude because of how it is represented in the media, particularly that aimed at adolescents who end up forming their ideas about sexuality on what they see in the media. Because we are given plenty of examples of girls being sluts ("negative consequences of female characters? sexual activity") and guys being studs, we tend to notice these particular archetypes more when they occur in real life, even if they are not the majority of the cases. There is nothing, nothing in that text about women being objectified. Besides, several of your posts CONFIRM the sexual objectification of women, giving historical and social explanations as to why this is the case. Even girlwriteswhat admits as much. See, I've been paying attention.

By the way, I gave a better example of confirmation bias (without using the term) earlier in this thread. When a sexist male sees a shitty driver, he will expect said driver to be female. If it turns out the driver is a female, he chalks up another shitty woman driver and strokes his own ego. If the driver is male, he dismisses the entire experience altogether. That's confirmation bias. It's the same reason a few guys here are so eager to generalize about women as being "attention whores" or "enjoying being sexually objectified by men" or "talking bad about other girls" or "always talking about shoes". When they see an example of a girl who fits that description it's "See? What did I tell you? This is what girls are like." When they see a girl who doesn't fit that description, she doesn't count. She's basically invisible unless her actions allow her to fall into one of the pre-approved "this is what girls are like" categories. THAT'S confirmation bias. It's like saying "men and women can't be friends", then referencing studies about the biological differences between men and women, the differences in social behavior between men and women, movie quotes that perpetuate the stereotype, etc. But when someone says "I'm a man, and some of my friends are women", that doesn't count. THAT'S CONFIRMATION BIAS. People only see what they want to see, or what they expect to see if it's not a conscious decision.

I like that article, though. I gels extremely well with everything I've said up to this point.
 

TrollfaceDeux

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Did you read what you linked? The "double standard" is not about saying women get sexually objectified while men don't. It's about calling a sexually active woman a slut while calling a sexually active male a stud (which feminists hate). The study points out that this practice is perhaps not as prevalent in society as we assume it is, which is good. However, it points out that we are led to believe this is a common attitude because of how it is represented in the media, particularly that aimed at adolescents who end up forming their ideas about sexuality on what they see in the media. Because we are given plenty of examples of girls being sluts ("negative consequences of female characters' sexual activity") and guys being studs, we tend to notice these particular archetypes more when they occur in real life, even if they are not the majority of the cases. There is nothing, nothing in that text about women being objectified. Besides, several of your posts CONFIRM the sexual objectification of women, giving historical and social explanations as to why this is the case. Even girlwriteswhat admits as much. See, I've been paying attention.
No, actually, you are proving the study's affirmation, which is that you focus on negativity of female sexuality (i.e. objectivity) and exemplify it as if it is the worst thing in the world. Please read the "By describing the pain, shame, and sense of injustice felt by women who are derogated for their (actual or implied) sexual behavior....However,
by only reporting data or anecdotes that confirm the double standard, researchers may inadvertently serve to entrench the double standard further in our culture's collective consciousness. In other words, the very act of bringing the double standard to people's attention may serve to reinforce it." Your interpretation of study is flawed at best.

Difference between your use of confirmation bias and our use of confirmation bias is that we do not victimize female sexuality, more like humour.
Your approach is problematic, given that it worsens women's sexuality and weakens their position in the male hierarchy. It makes them look weak.

I suspected that you'd pull another strawman, given your history.
 

Tanoomba

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No, actually, you are proving the study's affirmation, which is that you focus on negativity of female sexuality (i.e. objectivity) and exemplify it as if it is the worst thing in the world. Please read the "By describing the pain, shame, and sense of injustice felt by women who are derogated for their (actual or implied) sexual behavior." Your interpretation of study is flawed at best.

Difference between your use of confirmation bias and our use of confirmation bias is that we do not victimize female sexuality, more like humour.
Your approach is problematic, given that it worsens women's sexuality and weakens their position in the male hierarchy. It makes them look weak.

I suspected that you'd pull another strawman, given your history.
OK, let's go step by step here, because you're getting lost.
- I mention that women, unlike men, are sexually objectified pretty much all the time, whether they want to be or not.
- At least one study you linked (men as sex "buyers") and one video (girlwriteswhat) confirm this sexual objectification, while also explaining why. There are a few half-assed attempts to claim that men are just as objectified, but they don't hold up.
- Up to this point, I have never focused on the "negativity of female sexuality". I think women are sexual beings and should be in charge of their own sexuality.
- You show me an article about slut-shaming, specifically about how slut-shaming may be more a consequence of what the media tells us than what actually happens. I agree completely.
- You ask me to reread "By describing the pain, shame, and sense of injustice felt by women who are derogated for their (actual or implied) sexual behavior."
Done. Yeah, this is slut-shaming again, not objectification. Making women feel ashamed of their sexual behavior is slut-shaming. I (and feminists) believe women should not be made to feel pain or shame for their sexual behavior. This has no connection to anything I've said about objectification. You're misinterpreting the study to support a wobbly point that contradicts what you already seem to have confirmed earlier.

Now if you want, you can admit that women are sexually objectified whether they want to be or not (which is actually the stance I assumed you were taking since you provided evidence to support that) and say that it's not a big deal. It sounds like you want to tell me that it's me making it a big deal. Maybe, but a lot of women don't want to be constantly sexually objectified. A lot of women want to play by the same rules guys do and be judged by the same standards guys are judged, and right now they don't have that option (see "Gorilla cookies" Elena Kagan). And if that means going to war and working dangerous jobs and paying for dinner when on a date, that's fine. However, as demonstrated by the attitudes in this thread, men are not ready for that. They see it as a threat to their own masculinity. They assume women can't handle the extra responsibilities associated with not being pre-judged. They protect their "right" to make women uncomfortable because hey, talking to girls is hard so of course some guys are sometimes going to invade personal space and leverage their power to put a girl in an uncomfortable situation. Hey, I'm not expressing shock at any of this, it's the status quo. People fear change, it's human nature. But we are also capable of recognizing our own fear of change and thus reducing its hold over us. We have the power to appeal to the logic and reason of large groups of people, and by doing so slowly shift cultural attitudes. This is what feminism is trying to do. As you've pointed out, feminism is not perfect and shitty things have been done in the name of "feminism", but I hear women talk about wanting to be given the same opportunities that men have by default and I have difficulty coming up with a reason why we should be saying "no" to that.
 

ZyyzYzzy

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Tanoomba, how different do think it will feel after the surgery to get fucked in your fake vagina compared to getting fucked in the ass right now?
 

TrollfaceDeux

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Done. Yeah, this is slut-shaming again, not objectification. Making women feel ashamed of their sexual behavior is slut-shaming. I (and feminists) believe women should not be made to feel pain or shame for their sexual behavior. This has no connection to anything I've said about objectification. You're misinterpreting the study to support a wobbly point that contradicts what you already seem to have confirmed earlier.
Indeed, that is the flaw. Overemphasis of slut shaming/objectificationispart of the problem and doesn't really give you any idea why slut shaming exists. Simple assumption that slut shaming is bad is also ridiculous and doesn't address any underlying purpose of slut shaming in the first place.
But I wait for your reply as to how "objectification" is not part of female sexuality.

However, by only reporting data or anecdotes that confirm the double standard, researchers may inadvertently serve to entrench the double standard further in our culture's collective consciousness. In other words, the very act of bringing the double standard to people's attention may serve to reinforce it."
What you are is, really, same coin of two different sides. Negativity of female sexuality denoted by victimhood only enhances the value of female sexuality. Assumed value of female sex is enhanced by the traditionalism (i.e. overemphasis over virginity and to sell yourself out is obviously a slut). By the same extension, over-emphasis of rape,objectification, and other victimhood mentality of female sexuality will only work against your supposed goals, which is to devalue the female sexuality. If anything, it increases the value (respect and honour) of female "sexuality" by crafting more rules and social regulations to regulate men's sexual approaches to women. It is highly unusual that objectification would even become a problem, since sexual revolution "lifted" the social customs that were engineered to maintain relative worth of female sex. Now, we are seeing reintroduction of new rules to raise the relative value of female sexuality.

Irony.

And of course we have to ask ourselves, "Where does female negativity come from,why do we HAVE confirmation biasand why does it exist?"

Simple:Female sexual objectification is powerfor women. At no point in time of human history can we ever claim that women have not been objectified for their looks. It would be dishonest and incorrect view of our human nature and social engineering that was birthed by our predecessors.
"Four theories about cultural suppression of female sexuality are evaluated. Data are
reviewed on cross-cultural differences in power and sex ratios, reactions to the sexual
revolution, direct restraining in?uences on adolescent and adult female sexuality,
double standard patterns of sexual morality, female genital surgery, legal and religious
restrictions on sex, prostitution and pornography, and sexual deception. The view that
men suppress female sexuality received hardly any support and is ?atly contradicted by
some ?ndings. Instead, the evidence favors the view that women have worked to sti?e
each other's sexuality because sex is a limited resource that women use to negotiate
with men, and scarcity gives women an advantage."
http://www.femininebeauty.info/suppression.pdf
 

rhinohelix

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Tanoomba_sl said:
blah blah blarghy blarg.
Ugh. This kind of hyper-ideological misandry makes me want to go to a kegger, "identify and objectify", and then fist-bump my bros. Isn't there an Occupy rally at which the martyr missionary troll can go be smelly?

You must spread some Reputation round before thanking Trollface for college dorm-lounge debating Trollnoomba again.
 

Xeldar

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This thread:

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Rerolled.org is #1 forum for the hardcore mmo-jaded tranny.

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Tanoomba

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Indeed, that is the flaw. Overemphasis of slut shaming/objectificationispart of the problem and doesn't really give you any idea why slut shaming exists. Simple assumption that slut shaming is bad is also ridiculous and doesn't address any underlying purpose of slut shaming in the first place.
But I wait for your reply as to how "objectification" is not part of female sexuality.
Keep waiting, 'cuz I never said that. Objectification is a part of human sexuality (as opposed to female sexuality, since it requires one to objectify and one to be objectified). Slut-shaming is a social trend that, if I were to guess, came about as a way to prevent women from being in charge of their own sexuality (whether explicitly intentionally or not). Slut-shaming and objectification are not the same thing and you can not use an argument that applies to one and infer that it applies to another. Female sexuality, like male sexuality, is completely natural and beautiful and fun for everyone. Guys get to choose when and where to be sexual beings, women are always seen as sexual beings, whether they like it or not (which, of course, they often do, but they don't get to choose when). If a girl takes control of her sexuality by choosing not to care how she's seen by men, she's a "butch dyke" or "fat pig". If she chooses to take control of her sexuality by having sex with whomever she pleases, the media tells us she's a slut.



What you are is, really, same coin of two different sides. Negativity of female sexuality denoted by victimhood only enhances the value of female sexuality. Assumed value of female sex is enhanced by the traditionalism (i.e. overemphasis over virginity and to sell yourself out is obviously a slut). By the same extension, over-emphasis of rape,objectification, and other victimhood mentality of female sexuality will only work against your supposed goals, which is to devalue the female sexuality. If anything, it increases the value (respect and honour) of female "sexuality" by crafting more rules and social regulations to regulate men's sexual approaches to women. It is highly unusual that objectification would even become a problem, since sexual revolution "lifted" the social customs that were engineered to maintain relative worth of female sex. Now, we are seeing reintroduction of new rules to raise the relative value of female sexuality.
You're really sticking to this "negativity of female sexuality" thing, even though I've never presented female sexuality (or male sexuality, for that matter) in a negative light. And since when is my goal "to devalue the female sexuality"? Rape culture (ie: The perpetuation of attitudes that rape is sometimes not rape, that boys who commit rape need to be protected because they are on a sports team, that it's OK to blame the victim of rape, etc.) is not something being targeted in an effort to de-value female sexuality. It's something being targeted because rape is not OK, and pretending rape culture doesn't exist will absolutely not help these attitudes just go away.

Now I know what you're trying to say: That drawing attention to a problem sometimes perpetuates the problem itself.
Here's a better example of that: A friend of mine posts a Facebook link to a story about a dangerous trend where assholes put thumbtacks in pieces of cheese and leave them in dog parks for dogs to eat. Warning to all dog owners! Of course the comments were full of "People who do that should be slashed to pieces by razor blades", etc. I did some simple Googling and saw that there had only been one case of "thumbtacks in cheese", just one, and nobody had any reason to worry about anything. "Yeah, but what if he gives other people that idea?" my friend asked, unaware of the irony that the panic created by this Facebook post would do more to spread this idea than anything the original wacko alone could have done.
Right? I'm not tuning you out or missing your point, man, I'm just telling you your diagnosis is flawed.

I'm certainly not saying we need "rules and regulations" to regulate men's sexual approaches to women. I'm saying if a woman is trying to accomplish something that has nothing to do with her sexuality, we shouldn't make obnoxious comments about how ugly she is (or even how hot she is if that happens to be the case). If a woman is approached on an elevator and expresses discomfort or a lack of interest, the guy should do the logical decent thing and politely back off. If a girl is free and open with her sexuality, sharing it with anybody she deems worthy, we shouldn't let the media tell us she's a slut. If a girl gets raped, we shouldn't try to shift the blame on her because she was "dressed provocatively". As men, we actually get all of these things by default. Why are we judging women (or feminists, to be more specific) so harshly for wanting the same things?


And of course we have to ask ourselves, "Where does female negativity come from,why do we HAVE confirmation biasand why does it exist?"

Simple:Female sexual objectification is powerfor women. At no point in time of human history can we ever claim that women have not been objectified for their looks. It would be dishonest and incorrect view of our human nature and social engineering that was birthed by our predecessors.
"Female negativity" is ridiculously vague and means nothing.
Confirmation bias exists because people see what they want to see or, to be more specific, what they are trained to see.

And if female objectification is power for women, then feminism wants to get rid of this power. Shouldn't you be for people willingly giving up power? They'd only be hurting themselves, right?
While human history goes a long way in explaining how our current circumstances came to be, we certainly can't use history as a model of how we should live our lives today. Sure, we can accept the presence of a "human nature" (although this could be the subject of a whole other discussion) and we can talk about human instinct that is ingrained in us through hundreds of thousands of years of evolution. However, despite these factors we are in charge of our own behavior. We are capable of making decisions about how we behave, as a society, that can benefit or hurt people within that society. So yeah, there's a historical reason why women are objectified. That doesn't change the fact that a women shouldn't be objectified if she doesn't want to be. We have that choice. Women don't. Is this so challenging of a concept to grasp?
 

Dabamf_sl

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Time Tanoomba has spent posting in this thread: ~10 hours
Time everyone else combined has spent reading his posts: ~1 hour
 

Tanoomba

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Time Tanoomba has spent posting in this thread: ~10 hours
Time everyone else combined has spent reading his posts: ~1 hour
And this is coming from someone who was on my side...

All right. I'll take a break.
 

TrollfaceDeux

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I'd like to make a long response but so far he has no given me any evidence or scientific study to back any of his presumptions. He continuously expands his previous points, thereby making it null and void, avoids being responsible for the things that has been stated, and erroneously deploy anecdotal evidence as a prime example for "need for feminism." Basically, he is begging the question. What a meaningless exercise.
 

TrollfaceDeux

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"There are no fat ugly studs"

Totally false. Ron Jeremy. Henry Kissinger.
"I think perhaps part of feminists' beef with how men objectify women (other than the differential of costs/risks/benefits of sex depending on whether you're male or female, which I explained in a long video and won't go into here, but which are the root of why feminists/women are seriously bothered by sexual objectification of women) has to do with how uncomplicated men's primary criteria are.

Physical signs of youth, health, good genes and fertility in women are going to be uniform across cultures and across different environments. Those are men's primary criteria, because the woman's primary reproductive investment in the pairing--pregnancy, generating viable children, surviving childbirth, and being able to do so many times over--is all based on a woman's age, health, good genes and fertility. These are all visible criteria, detectable just by looking at a woman's body, as if she is an object.

Because her mandatory biological investment (carrying/raising offspring) is high, and his mandatory biological investment (providing sperm) is low, a woman's criteria will be more evenly spread across a variety of traits, only one of which is the man's body. She will be looking to capitalize on forms of male investment in offspring that are not necessarily biological.

Women's criteria for men, the lower-investing partner (biologically speaking), will be more heavily weighted on things like social status, intelligence, resources, attitude, behavior, etc. Things men can "do" or "earn" or "get" or "learn". They seem like less shallow criteria because they are less rooted in the body, they take a little longer to detect and identify, and because what it takes to acquire social status for a man is different not only across cultures but within class cohorts of a specific culture. That is, what is attractive to a blue collar woman may be very different to a white collar one.

A physically unattractive man can be attractive to a lot of women (think of Mick Jagger, Henry Kissinger), if he embodies enough other criteria. The same can't really be said for a physically unattractive or older woman (Rita MacNeil, Madeleine Albright), who may find a specific man who prioritizes her personality and success over her looks, but will not have throngs of men beating down her door.
Unlike female attractiveness to men, male attractiveness to women does not have as uniform a set of parameters or a definite expiry date. And I think that really rubs feminists the wrong way." girlwriteswhat
 

Famm

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"There are no fat ugly studs"

Totally false. Ron Jeremy. Henry Kissinger.
Ron Jeremy was created by the porn industry. If the guy was a construction worker he wouldn't be a stud. Kissinger is like saying Bill Clinton is a stud. What they lack in looks they make up for in sheer power and influence, which if anything ismoreof a turn on for women than just looks. I think Jefferies was talking about the run of the mill every day guy on the street, not high powered politicians and porn stars. Plus its just some crass stand up routine, albeit with splashes of hard reality, not exactly a serious discussion social sexual behavior.
 

Phazael

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I doubt anyone is getting in line to fuck Thatcher or other powerful women, though. And Ron Jeremy is a stud because men like the idea that a fat ugly dude can bang hot chicks. His celebrity status has nothing to do with what women think of him.