Woodworking

Bandwagon · Oct 22, 2023

whoo said:
Yes, it's nice having a drill press with a flat table and a fence that's square to the quill. But... You really don't *need* one unless you're doing production volume

Main priority is just learning right now, but "production" really is something I'm always thinking about. That's probably why I overcomplicate everything. I want to come up with a design I can mostly CNC. For everything else, production-style setup. I'm always thinking "could I make 100 of this part on a Saturday this way". (I don't think I really noticed that thought process until I started typing this)

Seems silly to be concerned with that when I'm just learning and it's a long ways off, but that's the goal. And I've never worked in a "wood shop" other than high school, but I worked in a couple lumber mills for a couple years and that's where my mind goes. Make 10,000 doodads a day.

mkopec · Oct 22, 2023

IF you have a CNC you can get into sign business. Making signs for people out of plastic sheets. People and businesses always need signs. Or building jigs for people that dont want to make them just buy them. Also why would you need a drill press if you have a CnC which is like a drill press on steroids? I mean sure you cant just CnC everything and a drill press would be nice, but CnC can do that plus much more.

Bandwagon · Oct 22, 2023

mkopec said:
IF you have a CNC you can get into sign business. Making signs for people out of plastic sheets. People and businesses always need signs. Also why would you need a drill press if you have a CnC which is like a drill press on steroids? I mean sure you cant just CnC everything and a drill press would be nice, but CnC can do that plus much more.

I'm not doing it because I need money or want a side business. I'm begrudgingly doing it as a business just because I don't want to pay for big toys out of pocket. It's just a passion project I want to fund itself. I like maps. I like making maps into stuff. That's about it.

The table legs themselves are about the only thing I can't CNC everything on...now. Most of the issues I was having with the last one (most notably the plywood + resin warping) I did are being solved by dropping the map into a pocket of a solid slab, instead of building a border around the map table. Doing what

Palum suggested with the kerf mount corner brackets works because I can CNC the aprons from a single axis in one go. Shape them, drill bolt holes & recess, cut the kerf for the bracket, then run them through the router table with a flush bit to take off the CNC tabs. Then I'll put them in a sled and run the exposed face through a drum sander or planer. Those will bolt to the bottom of the table/slab with M5 furniture bolts and threaded inserts. Top of the slab has a ___" x ____" pocket that I can drop different map designs into (so custom stuff means redoing the map design, which is easier for me, and not the whole table design). And I'll have a graphics layer outside the map insert for different stuff like Azimuth or coordinates grid or cartographic monsters that can change with each insert. The fact that the kerf for Palum's suggestion can be cut in from the same axis as the holes to attach it to the bottom of the table was the reason it ended up being so appealing to me. No flipping pieces.

I have a parametric model for this thing mostly done in Fusion360. I just haven't been able to figure out the legs until the suggestions here. (Again, with production being a goal).

So if this all comes together well and it's mostly machined, just handling the drilling in the legs doesn't seem bad at all. But it does really highlight that the drill press setup I have is worse than any of the other stuff I've been improving & learning.

mkopec · Oct 22, 2023

Typically for legs like that I would set up a angle jig on the table saw to produce those, even for production later. And yeah you do need aprons to add strength and keep the legs rigid.

I would say the most important tools to start woodworking with would be a good table saw first. On that above table you could mass produce all the pieces more quick and efficient on a table saw rather than CnC. (Other than your 3D milled landscape topographical map)

Intrinsic · Oct 22, 2023

Bandwagon

I know this isn’t what you’re doing, but it keeps popping up and making me think of your work, so thought I’d throw it here in case there’s a random idea you could steal

Bandwagon · Oct 22, 2023

Intrinsic said:
Bandwagon

I know this isn’t what you’re doing, but it keeps popping up and making me think of your work, so thought I’d throw it here in case there’s a random idea you could steal

View attachment 496681

Thanks. I've seen a bunch of those and I do like them, but they're a lot easier to make and more prevalent. I had a glowforge too and these things are all over the forums. They're popular because it's easy to engrave all the map layers on a flat surface, then use bathymetry for the depth. The map layers can be pulled from a bunch of different websites easily, so no cartography/GIS skills required. Same thing for the bathy data, which they use contours for.

I guess without getting too long winded....the stuff I'm doing would be much, much harder for the average person to do. Unless they take it up on themselves to learn gis software. My woodworking skills needs to catch up, but most other people aren't going to be able to do the "true" 3d relief maps unless they spend a year or two learning the software I'm good at. They're stuck using contour vector layers.

So although I do really like those bathy maps and I'd hang one up in my house, the approach I'm taking is harder and, I assume, would let me charge a premium. But my woodworking needs to get better first. If I sell a bunch of these and work my way to a large CNC that can do 48x96 and 6in or more of Z travel, I really could make stuff that I can sell for $50k+. Board room tables, art at airports, etc. I've been part of the procurement side of those things and have zero doubt that if I could build what's in my head, I could sell it. I had a blank check to do something similar for a popular rock climbing location years ago, but had no idea how to do it at the time.

Tl;Dr - I can do those too, but the approach I'm taking is largely because I'm trying to be unique and those bathy maps are easier for anyone to produce.

And sorry for shitting up this thread on occasion with CNC stuff. I know that's mostly not in the spirit of this thread, but general woodworking is what I need the most help with.

Captain Suave · Oct 22, 2023

Bandwagon said:
I had a blank check to do something similar for a popular rock climbing location years ago, but had no idea how to do it at the time.

You run the drone scanning/surveying business too, right? You should use the drones to make 3d scans of popular sections of famous climbing routes and then figure out how to re-create them for climbing gyms. I bet that'd make a mint. "Try your hand at the scary part of El Capitan from Free Solo!"

Bandwagon · Oct 22, 2023

Captain Suave said:
You run the drone scanning/surveying business too, right? You should use the drones to make 3d scans of popular sections of famous climbing routes and then figure out how to re-create them for climbing gyms. I bet that'd make a mint. "Try your hand at the scary part of El Capitan from Free Solo!"

I don't run the business, but I run that program yea.

What you suggested was the exact plan.

photogrammetric modeling of a wall with multiple climbing routes. Create a tactile replica and show the routes somehow (probably just color tint along the face). If I'd done it, it would have ended up in the middle of a multi-level REI. I could do the photogrammetry and create the digital model at the time, but no idea how to make the real world replica. As it turns out, the town I work in has a big custom manufacturing company that specializes in making art pieces that artists design, like 60ft tall statues and stuff. Wish I'd known that when I passed.

Edit: I was already 3d printing drone models when someone asked me to do this, but it pushed me to learn about a bunch of other shit. White clouds 3d prints really good models and did a few for me. They probably could have done it in tiles or chunks, but not one go.

Solid terrain modelling (STM) uses a custom CNC machine to do their huge models. The main one they use couldn't do something the size of what I was asked to do, but they could have modified it to work. I just didn't know they existed back then.

Lightning Lord Rule · Oct 23, 2023

Bandwagon

Have you thought about doing an aeronautical chart like this? Aero charts have a lot of little things on them like power lines and other vertical obstacles that you could actually build a little model of and put on the map. Sort of like a cross between a map like you're doing here and those diorama's people make. Something like that would EASILY sell to airports as wall art or tables, I bet.

You could even do ones that "go back in time" for lack of a better term. What I mean is, instead of a current chart, you could find one from like say 1965, and all the little detail things you add to the chart/map/diorama/thing could be styled to look like things were in 1965.

Even just a table sized 1:1 with say a Seattle sectional chart would be pretty damned big, like 4'x4' or something.

Image just because:

Intrinsic · Oct 23, 2023

I was actually thinking about this today and asking him the possibility. We’re building 250 towers and it would be awesome to have a state relief map where we could physically place little lattice structure or toothpick where new tower builds are going. Our client would get a huge kick out of that and it’d be quite the showpiece.

Bandwagon · Oct 23, 2023

Lightning Lord Rule said:
Bandwagon

Have you thought about doing an aeronautical chart like this? Aero charts have a lot of little things on them like power lines and other vertical obstacles that you could actually build a little model of and put on the map. Sort of like a cross between a map like you're doing here and those diorama's people make. Something like that would EASILY sell to airports as wall art or tables, I bet.

You could even do ones that "go back in time" for lack of a better term. What I mean is, instead of a current chart, you could find one from like say 1965, and all the little detail things you add to the chart/map/diorama/thing could be styled to look like things were in 1965.

Even just a table sized 1:1 with say a Seattle sectional chart would be pretty damned big, like 4'x4' or something.

Image just because:

Those are sectional charts. I use them all the time at work and they are the worst fucking maps that have ever existed in the history of mankind. I'm offended that you even suggested such a thing. Literally shaking....

edit: I do like the idea of aviation-themed and nautical-themed maps, but I think FAA sectional charts are an abomination. These are the two places I get most of my inspiration -

Atlas of Design

atlasofdesign.org

https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/view/all?res=1&sort=Pub_List_No_InitialSort

Intrinsic said:
I was actually thinking about this today and asking him the possibility. We’re building 250 towers and it would be awesome to have a state relief map where we could physically place little lattice structure or toothpick where new tower builds are going. Our client would get a huge kick out of that and it’d be quite the showpiece.

The larger the geographic area, the higher the chance it's going to be underwhelming with my current CNC setup and capabilities. I only have 0.7inches or so of relief that I can cut into it. On something like the Kansas City, Missouri one I did (where I picked a big footprint and the real terrain is mostly flat), it creates significant vertical exaggeration. I think it ended up being a ratio of something like 1:32 horizontal:vertical. Vertical exaggeration is kind of cool (and the old vacuformed topo maps from USGS are usually 1:3), but usually it's the opposite. Usually it ends up flattening the whole area. So, for example, something like Mt. St. Helens with a 30-mile buffer around it would end up looking like a small bump instead of a mountain.

Draw me a boundary in google earth and send me the KMZ file and I can check it real quick to show you with my custom shader, but more than likely you'd get something better from STM or Whiteclouds right now. Give me a few more years of working on this stuff and I'll be ready for big ass maps.

This is what I'd recommend -

I have one of their models sitting behind me on my bookshelf at the office.

Burns · Oct 23, 2023

Bandwagon said:
Those are sectional charts. I use them all the time at work and they are the worst fucking maps that have ever existed in the history of mankind. I'm offended that you even suggested such a thing. Literally shaking....

edit: I do like the idea of aviation-themed and nautical-themed maps, but I think FAA sectional charts are an abomination. These are the two places I get most of my inspiration -

Atlas of Design

atlasofdesign.org

https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/view/all?res=1&sort=Pub_List_No_InitialSort

The larger the geographic area, the higher the chance it's going to be underwhelming with my current CNC setup and capabilities. I only have 0.7inches or so of relief that I can cut into it. On something like the Kansas City, Missouri one I did (where I picked a big footprint and the real terrain is mostly flat), it creates significant vertical exaggeration. I think it ended up being a ratio of something like 1:32 horizontal:vertical. Vertical exaggeration is kind of cool (and the old vacuformed topo maps from USGS are usually 1:3), but usually it's the opposite. Usually it ends up flattening the whole area. So, for example, something like Mt. St. Helens with a 30-mile buffer around it would end up looking like a small bump instead of a mountain.

Draw me a boundary in google earth and send me the KMZ file and I can check it real quick to show you with my custom shader, but more than likely you'd get something better from STM or Whiteclouds right now. Give me a few more years of working on this stuff and I'll be ready for big ass maps.

This is what I'd recommend -

I have one of their models sitting behind me on my bookshelf at the office.

If you were going to do a mountain or such, as an example, couldn't you slice the elevation up in the CAD program (lets say in 500ft increments). Then cut just elevation 0-500 on one board, then 501-1000 on a second board, and so on, then glue it all together? Outside of the very top piece, you could even use a few screws to hold the pieces together while the glue dries.

Bandwagon · Oct 23, 2023

Burns said:
If you were going to do a mountain or such, as an example, couldn't you slice the elevation up in the CAD program (lets say in 500ft increments). Then cut just elevation 0-500 on one board, then 501-1000 on a second board, and so on, then glue it all together? Outside of the very top piece, you could even use a few screws to hold the pieces together while the glue dries.

Yea. I've tried that, but it's almost impossible. At least with the 3d relief the way I'm doing it. Works just fine if you're stacking contour layers on top of eachother (like those bathy maps intrinsic posted).

Part of the problem is you have a very frail edge, like the edge of knife, on the different sections. That would be fine if I could do this type of stuff on a laser, where the tool isn't touching the wood. But with a CNC router bit, it'll destroy a lot of that edge. The other part of the problem is that the vertical is scaled based on a grayscale terrain map. White = top, black = bottom, with a gradient in between. So it's really hard to make sure that the top section (like the top of a mountain) has the exact same vertical scale as the rest of the section (bottom of the mountain). That part could be dealt with, but the first problem I mentioned makes it not even worth it to try in my opinion. I just need a bigger machine with more Z travel. Once I have that, I can just take a bunch of these 1in plywood sheets and laminate them together and do it all in one go.

The full size CNC table I want is anywhere from $12k - $40k. I've almost pulled the trigger on that $12k one a couple times, but I just keep telling myself that I have more than enough equipment right now to earn that money, but my woodworking ability is the main hurdle. Buying a bigger machine wouldn't really fix that problem, so might as well work up to it.

Here's the first one I tried doing this way with the laser cutter, stacking layers. Other pic is from solid terrain modeling.

Burns · Oct 23, 2023

Bandwagon said:
Yea. I've tried that, but it's almost impossible. At least with the 3d relief the way I'm doing it. Works just fine if you're stacking contour layers on top of eachother (like those bathy maps intrinsic posted).

Part of the problem is you have a very frail edge, like the edge of knife, on the different sections. That would be fine if I could do this type of stuff on a laser, where the tool isn't touching the wood. But with a CNC router bit, it'll destroy a lot of that edge. The other part of the problem is that the vertical is scaled based on a grayscale terrain map. White = top, black = bottom, with a gradient in between. So it's really hard to make sure that the top section (like the top of a mountain) has the exact same vertical scale as the rest of the section (bottom of the mountain). That part could be dealt with, but the first problem I mentioned makes it not even worth it to try in my opinion. I just need a bigger machine with more Z travel. Once I have that, I can just take a bunch of these 1in plywood sheets and laminate them together and do it all in one go.

The full size CNC table I want is anywhere from $12k - $40k. I've almost pulled the trigger on that $12k one a couple times, but I just keep telling myself that I have more than enough equipment right now to earn that money, but my woodworking ability is the main hurdle. Buying a bigger machine wouldn't really fix that problem, so might as well work up to it.

Here's the first one I tried doing this way with the laser cutter, stacking layers. Other pic is from solid terrain modeling.
View attachment 496789

View attachment 496790

Yea, that second one looks better and more natural. If a thin bottom edge is the main problem, with stacking to build height, what happens if you cut the bottom layer, then glue an uncut second sheet on top, then cut all the way through? I guess you would need some way to modify your table and the tolerances would be very small?

Even when you get a larger CNC, if you somehow figured that out, you could make some monster mountains, and even hollow them out a bit on the lower layers, to save weight...maybe.

Bandwagon · Oct 23, 2023

Burns said:
Yea, that second one looks better and more natural. If a thin bottom edge is the main problem, with stacking to build height, what happens if you cut the bottom layer, then glue an uncut second sheet on top, then cut all the way through? I guess you would need some way to modify your table and the tolerances would be very small?

If I'm understanding you right, I think you're describing a way I was thinking about doing it too. Bottom of mountain would have a flat top with a 1/8" pocket in it, then the top of mountain section would have a little 1/8" base that nestles into it, right? So (hopefully) the two pieces of terrain marry together perfectly? Or am I misunderstanding?

Yea that could work, but I think splitting/tiling the terrain just turns into a snowball thing with all sorts of PITA stuff to deal with. I've spent so long thinking about this stuff at this point that I just feel like most problems are solved by a bigger machine and I should work towards that, instead of trying to figure out how to do bigger stuff with my little machine. I was doing tile stuff like this on my little laser engraver and although it works, it's just a massive time sink trying to make stuff that's bigger than my machine bed.

Burns said:
Even when you get a larger CNC, if you somehow figured that out, you could make some monster mountains, and even hollow them out a bit on the lower layers, to save weight...maybe.

I'd be kind of nervous about hollowing out the bottom after putting all the work in the top, but yea that's a good suggestion. I guess I could invert and flip the terrain map graphic, flip the plywood in the jig, then do a rough 3d toolpath to hollow it out without taking the time to do a full 3d finish. Actually.....that'd be a cool way to make a cavity to put some lighting, too. I like that idea.

Burns · Oct 23, 2023

Bandwagon said:
If I'm understanding you right, I think you're describing a way I was thinking about doing it too. Bottom of mountain would have a flat top with a 1/8" pocket in it, then the top of mountain section would have a little 1/8" base that nestles into it, right? So (hopefully) the two pieces of terrain marry together perfectly? Or am I misunderstanding?

Yea that could work, but I think splitting/tiling the terrain just turns into a snowball thing with all sorts of PITA stuff to deal with. I've spent so long thinking about this stuff at this point that I just feel like most problems are solved by a bigger machine and I should work towards that, instead of trying to figure out how to do bigger stuff with my little machine. I was doing tile stuff like this on my little laser engraver and although it works, it's just a massive time sink trying to make stuff that's bigger than my machine bed.
View attachment 496792

View attachment 496793

I'd be kind of nervous about hollowing out the bottom after putting all the work in the top, but yea that's a good suggestion. I guess I could invert and flip the terrain map graphic, flip the plywood in the jig, then do a rough 3d toolpath to hollow it out without taking the time to do a full 3d finish. Actually.....that'd be a cool way to make a cavity to put some lighting, too. I like that idea.

Disclaimer: I am no expert woodworker or engineer, just spitballing:
I don't know the limitations of the table or software, but if you could secure the bottom of the art piece in place where it cant move, figure out how to adjust the table and router rails separately, and the software was able, I was thinking:

Let's say you wanted to do something silly tall, like Mt. Shasta, which is ~10,000ft over the surrounding land, using 3 sheets of plywood:

Sheet 1 (base): cut half way into the wood, or however deep you normally cut now, up to ~4000ft. This would leave a huge flat spot of wood, which you glue another uncut sheet/square of plywood to.
Sheet 2: now, if you can figure out how to move the table down or CNC router rails up, cut another 4000ft with the CNC once the glue has dried, which again, has a flat spot, to which you glue the final sheet/square of ply
Sheet 3: finish up with the CNC for the last ~2000 ft

That way there would be no thin edge for the router bit to chew up, since it will already be glued to the underlying piece.

Just looking around at various CNC machines it would probably be more work than it was worth, but something like this one didn't look like it would be too hard to mod:

2023-10-23 15.28.34 www.google.com 347708c73227.png

Lightning Lord Rule · Oct 23, 2023

Bandwagon said:
Those are sectional charts. I use them all the time at work and they are the worst fucking maps that have ever existed in the history of mankind. I'm offended that you even suggested such a thing. Literally shaking....

edit: I do like the idea of aviation-themed and nautical-themed maps, but I think FAA sectional charts are an abomination. These are the two places I get most of my inspiration -

Atlas of Design

atlasofdesign.org

https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/view/all?res=1&sort=Pub_List_No_InitialSort

Lol, can't argue with you much there. I've been dealing with them for most of my life and the amount of bullshit on there is crazy.

However, if you were to just omit most of the minutiae, make it topographical, and maybe not include the entire sectional/zoom in on part of it, I think you could have something that airports would buy. You don't have to make it EXACTLY like a chart, just reminiscent of one. Like, for some of the little geegaws and whatnot you could do mini 3d printing maybe...

Bandwagon · Oct 23, 2023

Burns said:
Disclaimer: I am no expert woodworker or engineer, just spitballing:
I don't know the limitations of the table or software, but if you could secure the bottom of the art piece in place where it cant move, figure out how to adjust the table and router rails separately, and the software was able, I was thinking:

Let's say you wanted to do something silly tall, like Mt. Shasta, which is ~10,000ft over the surrounding land, using 3 sheets of plywood:

Sheet 1 (base): cut half way into the wood, or however deep you normally cut now, up to ~4000ft. This would leave a huge flat spot of wood, which you glue another uncut sheet/square of plywood to.

Sheet 2: now, if you can figure out how to move the table down or CNC router rails up, cut another 4000ft with the CNC once the glue has dried, which again, has a flat spot, to which you glue the final sheet/square of ply

Sheet 3: finish up with the CNC for the last ~2000 ft

That way there would be no thin edge for the router bit to chew up, since it will already be glued to the underlying piece.

Just looking around at various CNC machines it would probably be more work than it was worth, but something like this one didn't look like it would be too hard to mod:
View attachment 496797

Ahhhh, gotcha. So kind of assemble in place, in phases? I'd have to think on that a bit. I have a bitsetter that might make it work fine, but I don't know that I could clear the material, keep enough bit depth, AND reach the bitsetter all at the same time with that height.

Bandwagon · Oct 23, 2023

Lightning Lord Rule said:
Lol, can't argue with you much there. I've been dealing with them for most of my life and the amount of bullshit on there is crazy.

However, if you were to just omit most of the minutiae, make it topographical, and maybe not include the entire sectional/zoom in on part of it, I think you could have something that airports would buy. You don't have to make it EXACTLY like a chart, just reminiscent of one. Like, for some of the little geegaws and whatnot you could do mini 3d printing maybe...

Ahhhhh, that makes more sense. I thought you were recommending sectionals because you liked them, not because an aviation map in general would be a good idea to pitch to an airport.

Captain Suave · Oct 23, 2023

A router sled table for flattening that also has a movable face mounting surface so you can do jointing, chamfers, and tapers of basically arbitrary size. Pretty cool.

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