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Phazael

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Captain Capitalism: Why Post-Scarcity Economics is Scary

How isn't Rome post scarcity? They owned the world and had access to everything, and the state covered the cost/simply took what they wanted.

Rome had institutionalized slavery and that along with their constant push for military conquest is what drove their economy. And even if you accept the flawed premise that they were a post scarcity society, they were brought down from within by Christianity which took their largely secular representative democracy and warped it into a theocracy to satisfy the superstitions of the retarded over breeding masses.
 
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mkopec

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The whole notion of equality is fucking laughable. People are not equal and nothing is fair.
 
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Phazael

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The whole notion of equality is fucking laughable. People are not equal and nothing is fair.
And yet it is a faulty premise that many ideologies base themselves around (3rd Wave Feminism, true Communism and Socialism, Collectivism, ect) and then wonder why it all goes to shit at some point.
 

Woolygimp

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Guarantee I know more about the Roman Empire than anyone on this board, perhaps the entire board put together.

I may be misunderstanding what a post scarcity economy is, but not my history.
 

ZyyzYzzy

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Guarantee I know more about the Roman Empire than anyone on this board, perhaps the entire board put together.

I may be misunderstanding what a post scarcity economy is, but not my history.
If I google top Roman Historians what number willyou be?
 
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Pops

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Guarantee I know more about the Roman Empire than anyone on this board, perhaps the entire board put together.

Edward_Emily_Gibbon.jpg
 
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Dandain

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First, the options in this thread are dumb.

I don't have any idea what style of governance is the end game for humanity. But Capitalism definitely has a lifespan. We do need to admit that it basically leverages human greed as the prime motivator. This boils down to the fact that we do not ideally leverage humanity's abilities to do its best works, because people chose professions based upon compensation at a much greater rate than opposed to what they would thrive in. I would ideally want my leaders, teachers, agriculturalists, etc etc. to be perusing something they have a driving passion/talent for. Capitalism also have a small percentage of people who will forever remain unemployed, and while far future Sci-Fi often depicts the destitute sections of space stations, I'm not sure that we can achieve the space stations without some interim step where said stations do not contain an unemployed mass.

What type of government would be desirable on a generation ship like was discussed in the astronomy thread lately? Such a system is closed, requires continued education and stability across power transfers. There is required redundancy of skill sets because if you can't replace any given specialist the ship will break. Also, there can't be a method of internal mobility as a means to more material ends - like a bigger quarters. People couldn't be housed in vastly unequal quarters/living conditions without guaranteeing the collapse of the ship unless it was some kind of hyper cast system where the pleebs were full on slaves of the ruling group.

I'm not anti-capitalist, I'm not sure humanity has invented/discovered a better method yet, but it definitely shouldn't be elevated to status of end game governance.
 
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AngryGerbil

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This boils down to the fact that we do not ideally leverage humanity's abilities to do its best works, because people chose professions based upon compensation at a much greater rate than opposed to what they would thrive in. I would ideally want my leaders, teachers, agriculturalists, etc etc. to be perusing something they have a driving passion/talent for.

Why are those professions compensated at a greater rate in the first place?

So I should be awarded money for making shitposts on FoH all day? Where would that money come from? a_skeleton_03? Shall we get our pitchforks and take the bank from a_skeleton_03 so that we can distribute it to me for my glorious shitposts?

But wait, where did a_skeleton_03's War Chest even come from? Certainly it isn't.......... for having provided a service that individuals think is valuable. No no no no non on ononononon. That would be Capitalism and that just won't do for some mysterious reason.
 

Dandain

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I never said I had a solution for something different Gerbil, its still a weakness of capitalism. Teacher's are one of the most valuable societal services we have, and yet our education system sucks. Many individuals who would be great amazing educators do not in modern America because it is very clearly a trade-off in economic opportunity. If you don't see any weaknesses in capitalism great, it can be worshiped as an idol instead of Muhammad.
 

Scoresby

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I never said I had a solution for something different Gerbil, its still a weakness of capitalism. Teacher's are one of the most valuable societal services we have, and yet our education system sucks. Many individuals who would be great amazing educators do not in modern America because it is very clearly a trade-off in economic opportunity. If you don't see any weaknesses in capitalism great, it can be worshiped as an idol instead of Muhammad.

Really appreciated your view and agree that at some level we have to figure out how to break humanity out of the vicious cycle of greed driven motivators and more into one where we look to help others. It's a hard sell, especially since the world tends to turn us all into cynical assholes sooner or later. It is way harder to not say "fuck the other guy" because deep down, we are all judgemental by nature and view ourselves greater than our fellow man.
 

Kiroy

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Guarantee I know more about the Roman Empire than anyone on this board, perhaps the entire board put together.

The question is, do you know more about the Roman Empire than Wikipedia?
 
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OhSeven

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Full on Socialism will never work due to human nature. Advanced societies have lower birth rates and get out bred (and dragged back into the mud) by hordes of retards who fuck like rabbits. People would all have to basically be able to be both educated, driven, and capable of putting aside their personal interests for the collective good.

That sounds familiar. I like it!
nazi-propaganda.jpg
 
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Woolygimp

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Gibbon is foundational to our modern understanding of Roman History, but i wouldn't call him the best source now. His anti-christian bias heavily skews his analysis.

Gibbon was absolutely correct that Christianity was one of the largest causes for the dissolution of the WRE. Unfortunately, he was born before we really knew the extent of the Antonine Plague and Plague of Galen which could have wiped out as much as a third of the population. There was an extreme drop in literacy following the Antonine plague and that's because knowledge was transferred via tutors and apprenticeships, and not a formal educational system. When those tutors, blacksmiths, and workers die there's really no one available to teach the up and coming generation. This is why lorica segmentata disappeared around the 2nd century. The knowledge and infrastructure to mass produce plated armor was lost.

The plagues caused mass conversion to Christianity, which lead to a lot of elites donating their fortunes to the church instead of their children, or to the state. This led to a massively wealthy church, and a very weakened state and populace. After several generations of the church absorbing the wealth, the state could no longer maintain infrastructure and pay for the army. This combined with the barbarians gaining access to Roman technology, equipment, and tactics led to much more evenly matched militaries, whereas prior to this the Romans would face off against largely unarmored barbarian hordes, with only the chieftains wearing armor. Now the barbarians were fielding troops equipped with mail, ballistae, and Roman style weapons and cavalry.

So basically plagues led to Christianity which led to a weakened state which led to the dissolution of the West. Combine this with technological transference and "wallah".
 
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Woolygimp

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I frequent a forum with many scholars on this period. Several of them have written the most recent books, given the most recent lectures, teach on the subject, and help organize re-enactments. These guys know what they're talking about. The Roman Empire and the causes of its collapse are a hobby of mine and I have enough knowledge on the subject to write a book.

Gibbons really wasn't far from the mark and considering he wrote his magnum opus at a period in time where scholars lacked a lot of knowledge that we now have, it's very, very impressive.
 

Kiroy

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Gibbon was absolutely correct that Christianity was one of the largest causes for the dissolution of the WRE. Unfortunately, he was born before we really knew the extent of the Antonine Plague and Plague of Galen which could have wiped out as much as a third of the population. There was an extreme drop in literacy following the Antonine plague and that's because knowledge was transferred via tutors and apprenticeships, and not a formal educational system. When those tutors, blacksmiths, and workers die there's really no one available to teach the up and coming generation. This is why lorica segmentata disappeared around the 2nd century. The knowledge and infrastructure to mass produce plated armor was lost.

The plagues caused mass conversion to Christianity, which lead to a lot of elites donating their fortunes to the church instead of their children, or to the state. This led to a massively wealthy church, and a very weakened state and populace. After several generations of the church absorbing the wealth, the state could no longer maintain infrastructure and pay for the army. This combined with the barbarians gaining access to Roman technology, equipment, and tactics led to much more evenly matched militaries, whereas prior to this the Romans would face off against largely unarmored barbarian hordes, with only the chieftains wearing armor. Now the barbarians were fielding troops equipped with mail, ballistae, and Roman style weapons and cavalry.

So basically plagues led to Christianity which led to a weakened state which led to the dissolution of the West.

Much wow very knowledge
 
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