World of Warcraft: Current Year

RobXIII

RobXIII

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Fucker said:
Yeah. One person being able to blow a raid is bad design for most people. Doesn't FF14 or whatever have casual friendly raids?
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FF14 is far more forgiving. You can get a bunch of pity resses if you fuck up. Contrast that with some WoW raids where if you stand in a slightly different shade of purple from the purple ground around the boss, you heal him for 10% health a second. That one was neat!
 
TJT

TJT

Mr. Poopybutthole
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Blackwing Lair is probably my favorite wow raid ever.

Having a mechanic where one person can wipe you isn't that big a deal if there's only 1 mechanic out of maybe 5 on a raid boss. Raid bosses having 20+ different mechanics is where it starts becoming bullshit. You should only need like 1 to 10 players who actually know what they're doing to successfully lead a raid of retards.
 
Foggy

Foggy

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There are 4 raid difficulties. Just raid normal and heroic if mythic isn’t your thing.
 
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Qhue

Qhue

Tranny Chaser
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The pre-season has been fun for levelling up characters. I really want to like Evoker but somehow it just doesn't gel for me. Maybe it's just my sense of ability use is not keyed to it? I have a similar sense when playing an Spriest. Like I'm constantly off-beat.
 
Juvarisx

Juvarisx

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Qhue said:
The pre-season has been fun for levelling up characters. I really want to like Evoker but somehow it just doesn't gel for me. Maybe it's just my sense of ability use is not keyed to it? I have a similar sense when playing an Spriest. Like I'm constantly off-beat.
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I hated it too till I got to cap and geared it in the resonance shit. it feels great at cap, idk what they can do to improve the leveling but it needs to be somethin
 
Mist

Mist

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TJT said:
Didn't watch all of it but its a solid take from old Asmon. We all know it, but every developer since 2004 has been trying to recreate WOW 2004. Rather than trying to figure out what the next thing actually is or needs to be. Very few people in the industry have that kind of insight and passion right now. Especially the current generation of devs behind WoW.

His dumbass flow chart here is correct. Everything revolves around gay ass high skill ceiling combat to such an extent that nothing else actually matters. I have always called this structural difficulty versus tactical difficulty. As a social game you absolutely need to be able to bring 10-20 dumbasses to your raids who are cool people. Maybe not good at games per se but they are social and fun enough to game with and can learn to do at least a few things without fucking it up too badly. At the same time they can be useful to the group effort by crafting, farming, being on time and present, and so on.

Today its none of that. Only combat matters and nothing else. The genre going to the sweatiest poopsockers benefits nobody. Go play dark souls or some other game known for its difficulty. With the all consuming profit of MTX mobile games the desire to make a truly next generation MMO is small. There is a market but its back to the niche and nerdy circles for it.

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I would say that WoW generally has a good combat system, just not in raids, and increasingly not in dungeons either. The PvP combat is good because it's not about constantly executing your "rotation" or anything like that, it's about applying pressure then using abilities when they actually matter.

The combat is fucking terrible for raiding, specifically for the social reasons you mention. It needs to be more about situational awareness and saving your abilities for when they matter rather than having to hit 20 different buttons in the right order (aka the order that your mods tell you) for 6-10 minutes straight. That's not fun OR skill, while also distracting from everything else going on in the raid, whether it's boss abilities or just being a fucking human being.
 
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Palum

Palum

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Mist said:
I would say that WoW generally has a good combat system, just not in raids, and increasingly not in dungeons either. The PvP combat is good because it's not about constantly executing your "rotation" or anything like that, it's about applying pressure then using abilities when they actually matter.

The combat is fucking terrible for raiding, specifically for the social reasons you mention. It needs to be more about situational awareness and saving your abilities for when they matter rather than having to hit 20 different buttons in the right order (aka the order that your mods tell you) for 6-10 minutes straight. That's not fun OR skill, while also distracting from everything else going on in the raid, whether it's boss abilities or just being a fucking human being.
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Yea the combat feel is the best, but the system itself has become so bloated for many classes that it creates wayyyy too much complexity. It's not been getting worse, which I guess is good, but the thing that was good about vanilla was classes had like "THE THING" utility wise, rather than every class has 3 of each categories in various flavors where each one has to have a 'niche' or flavor.

Define classes in vanilla:
Paladin - Bubble and DI
Mage - Blink and frost nova
Rogue - stealth
War - shield and tank
Druid - shapeshifting

Vs define the same classes in DF... each one has dozens of overlaps. It's still the rotten corpse of 'bring the player not the class' and ancient bloat that still needs to be cut out.
 
Mist

Mist

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I understand your point, but I don't think having some overlap is a bad thing.

But you're right in that they need to rethink ways to make the classes feel mechanically different, without giving them 30+ buttons when 12-16 would suffice.

If people want more than 12-16 buttons, they can play classes that have stances or shift forms imo.
 
Palum

Palum

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Mist said:
I understand your point, but I don't think having some overlap is a bad thing.

But you're right in that they need to rethink ways to make the classes feel mechanically different, without giving them 30+ buttons when 12-16 would suffice.

If people want more than 12-16 buttons, they can play classes that have stances or shift forms imo.
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Well the problem is it's overlap that is carbon copy, not 'effective utility'. Like you used to have DI, ankh and rebirth as 'wipe recovery/battle res/clutch save' style spells that were all super unique and had pros and cons. But not you homogenized that and had to give it to 5 people because reasons. A good example of how it still happens is healer CDs, tranq vs atonement spam/shields, etc. I realize this makes tuning raiding and stuff hard but tbh who cares, because it should be fun and challenging that you beat, not stupid race to world first as the standard.
 
TJT

TJT

Mr. Poopybutthole
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Yeah not sure why it has to be reiterated. Yes there are multiple difficulties to cater to whatever group. But the nearly all development efforts are focused around the poopsockers because the race to first is for some reason the most important thing in the world to the actual developers and their managers.

Considering how few partake in that stupid ass race (not even 100 people) its perplexing why its the sole focus. Despite the glaring problems Vanilla WOW did have, its still beloved to this day. The current generation of developers don't understand why that is.
 
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Chris

Chris

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They need to remove the M+ timer, there's nothing enjoyable about a time limit like that.

Fucker said:
Yeah. One person being able to blow a raid is bad design for most people. Doesn't FF14 or whatever have casual friendly raids?
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What FF14 does at the medium difficulty level is have mechanic failures stacking debuff you rather than kill you, unless they are clearly and slowly telegraphed.

The debuffs mean you do less DPS or take more damage next time. So you can continue learning the fight even though the debuffs may stop a clear.

Also fucking up right at the end means you can limp over the line which feels great, especially if you use the whole raid res ability. That's not always possible as it shares cooldown with a big damage ability you may need and is commonly used to keep learning the fight even though you'll now fail the DPS check.

This makes it simultaneously more casual friendly but also enabling of higher difficulty fights.

Like Burning Crusade Kil'jaeden, pretty sure I stood still dpsing DPS most of the fight and had to move away from adds and out of fire, as a nolifer unemployed incel living with parents. I died on our one clear because I didn't move away from the adds that spawned on me quickly enough.

Endwalker Endsinger Ultimate, I was having to calculate the rotation and material composition of planets and if the boss's face is crying or throwing up, while having a full time job, house and wife. I tanked and healed it.
 
Springbok

Springbok

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Mist said:
I would say that WoW generally has a good combat system, just not in raids, and increasingly not in dungeons either. The PvP combat is good because it's not about constantly executing your "rotation" or anything like that, it's about applying pressure then using abilities when they actually matter.

The combat is fucking terrible for raiding, specifically for the social reasons you mention. It needs to be more about situational awareness and saving your abilities for when they matter rather than having to hit 20 different buttons in the right order (aka the order that your mods tell you) for 6-10 minutes straight. That's not fun OR skill, while also distracting from everything else going on in the raid, whether it's boss abilities or just being a fucking human being.
Click to expand...
Completely agree. That's why Ret Paladin is in a "great state". It's not the most powerful or anything but it's 4-5 buttons max, and makes the game significantly more enjoyable to me. I agree there should be specs that aspies play with 25 buttons and convoluted shitty/punishing skill chains, but there should be way MORE than 3 specs in the entire game that old arthritic spergs like me can play.
 
Fucker

Fucker

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Palum said:
Yea the combat feel is the best, but the system itself has become so bloated for many classes that it creates wayyyy too much complexity. It's not been getting worse, which I guess is good, but the thing that was good about vanilla was classes had like "THE THING" utility wise, rather than every class has 3 of each categories in various flavors where each one has to have a 'niche' or flavor.

Define classes in vanilla:
Paladin - Bubble and DI
Mage - Blink and frost nova
Rogue - stealth
War - shield and tank
Druid - shapeshifting

Vs define the same classes in DF... each one has dozens of overlaps. It's still the rotten corpse of 'bring the player not the class' and ancient bloat that still needs to be cut out.
Click to expand...
Combat was in a good place in Legion. They flatlined it with the recent updates. Hunter is lifeless and boring. Press one button, wait 10 minutes, press another one. Wait 10 minutes, press another button. Rogue is similarly bad.

The more they fiddle with things, the more they break it.
 
Palum

Palum

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Fucker said:
Combat was in a good place in Legion. They flatlined it with the recent updates. Hunter is lifeless and boring. Press one button, wait 10 minutes, press another one. Wait 10 minutes, press another button. Rogue is similarly bad.

The more they fiddle with things, the more they break it.
Click to expand...

Yea some are better than others for sure. I think I'm happy with most of the classes I play through.
 
BoozeCube

BoozeCube

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For a brand new xpac to release in a few days this shit is dead. Bliz might have finally pressed their luck to far.
 
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jayrebb

jayrebb

Naxxramas 1.0 Raider
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Yeah I ended up re-subbing and I'm going through the motions.

I haven't seen any War Within M+ dungeon design or raid design yet, or zone design so I can't speak on it. Me looking into this expansion at all just doesn't feel worth my time. The hype is just not there for me.

For BFA, SL, DL I was in a lot better spirits and feeling more confident about having a little fun.

Part of it is seeing what they've done to classes over the years. The pre-patch event gave me a chance to reach back and touch on some old alts I haven't played since a decade. I think if I find a class I like, I'll feel a little more positive hype-wise with regard to the first week, second week rush. I'm struggling to get hyped about mediocre Hero talents and whatever Delvs will end up being. I plan to buy the expac the night before official launch date-- but motivation is super low. Truly just going through the motions here.
 
Wombat

Wombat

Trakanon Raider
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I've long since stopped playing betas or looking at previews, since I'll be thoroughly sick of the new zones by the time I've run the necessary alts through. but my impression is its just another Dragonflight (if not less, because of no new class)- there's another batch of zones / quests / collectibles /etc., but you won't fondly remember any of it once expansion +1 comes out.
 
Palum

Palum

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I'm kinda excited for delves. Always had fun doing that type of content even islands in BFA with buddies for a few weeks. We'll see.
 
Araxen

Araxen

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Nevermind they fixed the memories. There is already a lvl 80!

 
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Chersk

Chersk

Trakanon Raider
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Best looking zone to date
 
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