Camelot Unchained MMO

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driedcatnip

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ha good fix. i edited that stuff out to be more concise/less redundant. it was going nowhere.
moving on, any oculus rift support? alot of games seem to just be tacking this on as a bonus feature -- whereas current feedback suggests that alot of games aren't really suited for it (bad ui, too fast pacing, bad scaling etc).
 
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driedcatnip

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cult like behavior on ks comments. 15k+ comments.
seems it will be funded one way or another. also, i felt dirty when i watched mj's ks vids... old man, bad sense of humor, salespitch... .
js for ui is good (potentially great depending on their services). ...their engine can't be any worse than vanguard. i imagine this will all die down, like the pathfinder thread.
 
Pyksel

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I dig the fact that Mark is sticking to his guns on some of his design philosophies, the problem is he doesn't have anything to show for it yet so taking him on blind faith is a tough pill to swallow for a lot of people. Luckily he's having his technical/art folks do some of the talking/showing.

Interesting technical discussion regarding Andrew Megg'sUI philosophy.
This is the nitty-gritty stuff, for the potential modders and hackers out there. Here be programmer-speak; you have been warned! Also, please keep in mind that right now this is a general plan rather than a shipping product, and there?s still substantial engineering work to do with this feature on our end. You should expect that things will change as we shake down the implementation. It?s one of the first pieces of infrastructure we?ll be rocking on if we fund, though.

First, don?t expect to make XMLHttpRequests directly from your own JavaScript if you want to run within the game. We plan to implement a lightweight JavaScript library to act as an intermediary. When running standalone on the web, this library will still speak AJAX and WebSockets while providing an OAuth-style token for user authentication. If you?re running on a server, you?ll of course be able to roll your own through those same public APIs in the language of your choice.

On the other hand, when your (or our) code is running in the game and using that library, for performance reasons some calls will be redirected into the client rather than actually making an HTTP request. We?ll encourage ? and very likely enforce ? that everyone use that library rather than going directly to our server. That will ensure UI mods can be as responsive as possible by using data the client has already cached locally, while still preserving the ability to work standalone. This will be an evolving process of tuning, and we may move the implementation behind a particular query back and forth between the two. However, this is the programming team?s own dogfood, so we promise to make it tasty.

There is a strong possibility that when running in-game, UI mods will be limited so they can?t talk to any servers other than our own (and via our library at that). When code is running in the wild we obviously won?t be able to enforce that limitation, so the token you get will instead provide less access than going through a logged-in and trusted client. Initially, expect a binary system: You?ll either have full access to a character or you?ll have the ability to send data to the outside world, but not both at the same time. We want to make finer-grained controls happen eventually, but ?eventually? may not happen in version 1.0 because working through the implications of every possible combination of mix-and-match permissions is not something that can or should be rushed. As a first step the ?limited information but with outside access? may become an alternate mode when running in the client.

The ?limited? mode will still include nearly all social and economic data, though. What we?re unlikely to provide when code has access to outside servers is realtime, detailed combat data, exact locations, and similar things that pertain to the action immediately occurring in the game world. We want to actively prevent anything resembling a ?global shared hivemind? radar/GPS overlay, so expect information with immediate tactical value to be aggregated, summarized, and deliberately lagged when viewed from the outside. There?s a balance there ? we do understand that players will talk on IM and forums outside of the game, so we don?t want to provide less information than they already share via good old-fashioned community. However, please bear with us if we initially err on the side of caution and only incrementally open that end of things up.

Finally, the usual sort of constraints about rate limits and throttling by IP and account will be in play here. Don?t destroy the server; it?s where you keep your stuff.

Speaking on the engine that they're building, the following is one of the latest updates. I realize that it's rough but you have to start somewhere and to me it sounds like they are starting in the right place with making sure the technology is able to handle the epic battles they want to have.
 
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Kharza-kzad_sl

shitlord
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The link is about some GL stuff (I don't use GL) that cuts down on some of the cost of making draw calls. MMOs aren't necessarily pushing more geometry, but they have limited control over what a scene will be like because there are players everywhere. MMOs almost need a special driver that cheapens drawcalls to the expense of all else. Especially for something with big crowds fighting.
 
Denaut

Denaut

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A video of a bunch of (nearly identical) NPCs running around client side doesn't impress me at all. 10 years ago that might have been a big deal, but that hasn't been the bottleneck for a while now, not to mention there are lots of purchasable and generic tech that can easily handle many draw calls at once.

Network traffic and server load are by far the major bottleneck, and they are something that is many times more difficult to solve. There are no good out-of-the-box solutions, and the game programmers with the right amount of skill and experience that can wield the tech necessary to achieve what they want are as rare as dragon eggs.

Building their own engine is ridiculously foolish.
 
Pyksel

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Denaut_sl said:
A video of a bunch of (nearly identical) NPCs running around client side doesn't impress me at all. 10 years ago that might have been a big deal, but that hasn't been the bottleneck for a while now, not to mention there are lots of purchasable and generic tech that can easily handle many draw calls at once.

Network traffic and server load are by far the major bottleneck, and they are something that is many times more difficult to solve. There are no good out-of-the-box solutions, and the game programmers with the right amount of skill and experience that can wield the tech necessary to achieve what they want are as rare as dragon eggs.

Building their own engine is ridiculously foolish.
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It's not surprising at all that the video doesn't impress you as I doubt anything that's been discussed or shown thus far would so I'm not sure what else you can achieve by continuing to bash them. Some of us get it, you don't like Mark Jacobs and you believe this will be a failed venture. Others, like myself, are hopeful that it will go through and be the niche game it's being promised and promoted to be.

They've already been discussing precisely what you're talking about with there being no good out of the box solutions for the network/server technology and the video wasn't to showcase anything more than what they've been able to put together in about 3 weeks time.

While I think they should have had the engine in place prior to the Kickstarter I think the building of their own engine is rather ambitious and exciting but hardly foolish. It's also been stated a few times that if this engine or technology doesn't come together they will move to something else and at that point I would start to have concerns. I have no idea if Andrew Meggs has the technical chops to pull it off but it's fun to watch and hope that he will.
 
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Draegan_sl

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I just don't understand why you are putting 100% faith behind this project. It's fine to be excited about the game if those philosophy points excite you, but I would be very skeptical of it in the mean time.
 
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Kedwyn

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I don't see anyone with 100% faith. Its something different. Something people have been bitching for for a bit (at least those that are interested in PVP) and I figure I can support the project with a few $$ or just bitch about wanting something different while not doing anything.

Sure it could be vaporware. I've spent enough money on shitty games that kicking them some cash isn't a big deal. If money is tight, you don't like them, don't believe in the vision or whatever people are free to not give.
 
Pyksel

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Draegan_sl said:
I just don't understand why you are putting 100% faith behind this project. It's fine to be excited about the game if those philosophy points excite you, but I would be very skeptical of it in the mean time.
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That's precisely it though Draegan, the philosophies do excite me (on paper) and sure I reserve some judgment on it but there's very little to be excited about in this space so when something that's being proposed as "different" comes along I find it fascinating.

Will I get burned in the end? Look, I could go around everyday being pissed off that the mmo space isn't better while touting that any potential candidate is going to fail while giving concise reasons why and history has shown that I would probably be right. This conversation is no different than any of the others that have transpired regarding the genre or any game within it. I'm starting to learn that success in the mmo space is very subjective so relenquishing the idea that a particular game is going to release that's going to hold my attention and subscription for years to come has been hard but necessary.

We all find and measure our successes differently. While you found 2 weeks of fun in Defiance I just couldn't get past the technical flaws. While we can both agree that Guild Wars 2 was worth the price of the box, others might not. So while I don't agree that I have 100% faith in this project I can attest that it's definitely up there and I hope this game will be a success for myself. Will it be the second coming of games like EQ, EVE, WoW or DAOC? I highly doubt it and frankly, I don't think it needs to be. I can remain hopeful and at least somewhat optimistic about it so getting in on this from the ground up while being a part of the Kickstarter is fun for me. I'm certainly not here asking for people to help fund it, nor am I trying to shill it.
 
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Draegan_sl

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Well that's measured response. Your response to Denaut was approaching white knight territory, which is why I replied.
 
Denaut

Denaut

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pyksel_sl said:
It's not surprising at all that the video doesn't impress you as I doubt anything that's been discussed or shown thus far would so I'm not sure what else you can achieve by continuing to bash them. Some of us get it, you don't like Mark Jacobs and you believe this will be a failed venture. Others, like myself, are hopeful that it will go through and be the niche game it's being promised and promoted to be.
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They could certainly impress me, if they were actually achieving or even attempting to achieve something valuable. Lots of games impress me one way or another, even games I don't like all that much. I know you are hopeful, but frankly with everything they've shown or written you shouldn't be, that just makes you foolish instead.

They've already been discussing precisely what you're talking about with there being no good out of the box solutions for the network/server technology and the video wasn't to showcase anything more than what they've been able to put together in about 3 weeks time.
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You don't even know what they demonstrating. You don't know because I don't know. What does a bunch of NPCs walking around prove? That they have a basic working renderer? I don't know what about that video I am even supposed to care about.

While I think they should have had the engine in place prior to the Kickstarter I think the building of their own engine is rather ambitious and exciting but hardly foolish. It's also been stated a few times that if this engine or technology doesn't come together they will move to something else and at that point I would start to have concerns. I have no idea if Andrew Meggs has the technical chops to pull it off but it's fun to watch and hope that he will.
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I don't think you even understand what an engine is or does exactly, it isn't something you develop in weeks or months, butYEARS. Very expensive years at that. Despite what they are saying I actually doubt they are building an all new engine completely from scratch. That would mean they have to build at least the following:
  • Low Level Libraries
  • Asset Management systems
  • A Rendering Engine
  • An Animation System
  • Physics Engine
  • Sound Engine
  • Input and Control Model
  • User Interface Framework
  • Billing System
  • Network Layer
  • Server Architexture and Infrastructure
  • Database layer
  • Database Tools
  • Scripting Engine
  • Pathfinding system
  • AI Engine
  • Testing Tools
  • World Editor and Level Building Tool
  • ...tons more I am forgetting...

So, either... a)they are lying when saying they are building the entire engine from scratch, b)I've grossly misread something or c) they are so supremely crazy and delusional to actually think they can build a competitive engine at a reasonable cost failure is absolutely assured. What they are PROBABLY doing is just building the server tech and buying the rest, that alone is a risky challenge.

There is absolutely 0 reason for a game like the one they are making to not use an existing engine like Unreal or Unity. Those 2 engines for example are excellent and come with most of my list for a damn low cost compared to what it would take you to make it yourself. The cost of the features in a purchased engine is amortized over many companies and many years making it a ridiculously cheap and efficient alternative to doing everything yourself from scratch.

So, if they are actually building their entire engine from scratch it isn't ambitious, it is just foolish with an absolute, iron-clad guarantee that they will utterly fail at anywhere even remotely close to the budget they are operating with.
 
Pyksel

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Denaut, I won't even begin to pretend that I understand the in's and out's of an engine. What I can tell you is the direct quote from Andrew Meggs here:

"First, to make something clear: We're not going doing everything completely from scratch from the ground up! That's would be, to put it mildly, suicidal. We're using someone else's physics engine. We're using huge chunks of some very familiar open source for our UI. We're using some industry-standard networking that allow us to run some well-known programs as part of our stack. We're still evaluating our audio middleware, but we're definitely using middleware.

So what are the parts that we need to do ourselves? Basically, anything that involves scaling up to a whole lot of players at once. There are a lot of engines out there that can do a great job drawing around 100 characters at once, but then they start to lag. I've worked with a bunch of engines and/or middleware pieces, and there's a common reason for that limit. They're general-purpose tech. They have a lot of flexibility in what you can do with those 100 characters. The trouble is that every bit of flexibility has a tradeoff. In programming, especially optimized game engine programming, building in flexibility adds a cost in performance. There's a cost to figuring out what you don't want to do. There's a cost to every polymorphic virtual function call just to figure out that "no, we don't need this thing on this character at this time". There's a cost to generic data structures that can represent any custom possibility."
 
Denaut

Denaut

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pyksel_sl said:
Denaut, I won't even begin to pretend that I understand the in's and out's of an engine. What I can tell you is the direct quote from Andrew Meggs here:

"First, to make something clear: We're not going doing everything completely from scratch from the ground up! That's would be, to put it mildly, suicidal. We're using someone else's physics engine. We're using huge chunks of some very familiar open source for our UI. We're using some industry-standard networking that allow us to run some well-known programs as part of our stack. We're still evaluating our audio middleware, but we're definitely using middleware.

So what are the parts that we need to do ourselves? Basically, anything that involves scaling up to a whole lot of players at once. There are a lot of engines out there that can do a great job drawing around 100 characters at once, but then they start to lag. I've worked with a bunch of engines and/or middleware pieces, and there's a common reason for that limit. They're general-purpose tech. They have a lot of flexibility in what you can do with those 100 characters. The trouble is that every bit of flexibility has a tradeoff. In programming, especially optimized game engine programming, building in flexibility adds a cost in performance. There's a cost to figuring out what you don't want to do. There's a cost to every polymorphic virtual function call just to figure out that "no, we don't need this thing on this character at this time". There's a cost to generic data structures that can represent any custom possibility."
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So, it was b.

I still think the designs are terrible
wink.png
 
Pyksel

Pyksel

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Draegan_sl said:
If you want to read some awesome design theory from an actually developer (posted this in the Wildstar thread), I suggest reading this:
http://wildstar-central.com/index.ph...m-slot.2287%2F

Cool read.
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I have been and definitely am jazzed for Wildstar.

Oddly enough that you mention Wildstar here's another quote from Andrew Meggs: "We've got a really powerful design for the tech, heavily inspired by something the tech director on Wildstar showed me back in the days when we worked together at Troika."
 
Grim1

Grim1

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Draegan_sl said:
If you want to read some awesome design theory from an actually developer (posted this in the Wildstar thread), I suggest reading this:
http://wildstar-central.com/index.ph...m-slot.2287%2F

Cool read.
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But they are building something totally different and catering to your gaming tastes, not the mass pvp crowd's. So of course you would like that more.

Is Camelot Unchained going to succeed? Probably not. But nobody else is even trying to build something that the mass pvp crowd wants. So we are hopeful, and yes just a little bit excited to at least see someone try. So we give them a little leeway.

In the end they will most probably fail to deliver and you will run around screaming "I told you so" with maniacal glee. But until then that isn't going to stop us from hoping that they succeed.
 
Abefroman

Abefroman

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I think there is some real head in the sand going on with this project. The budget and time frame just don't add up. I threw my money at it anyway just for the chance that it might work. Would be nice to have some diversity in the MMO genre.
 
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