Camelot Unchained MMO

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Draegan_sl

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Grim1_sl said:
But they are building something totally different and catering to your gaming tastes, not the mass pvp crowd's. So of course you would like that more.

Is Camelot Unchained going to succeed? Probably not. But nobody else is even trying to build something that the mass pvp crowd wants. So we are hopeful, and yes just a little bit excited to at least see someone try. So we give them a little leeway.

In the end they will most probably fail to deliver and you will run around screaming "I told you so" with maniacal glee. But until then that isn't going to stop us from hoping that they succeed.
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You completely missed the point again and you continue (for some bizarre reason) to attempt to label me as a certain type of gamer.

I was comparing a blog post from a developer that made sense, had clear and concise design elements and read something like a technical document for non-technical people to the stuff Mark Jacobs wrote. It has nothing to do with design-type, and all about how to properly relate your ideas and philosophy to your audience.
 
Grim1

Grim1

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No, I understand what you were trying to say. My point is that you are biased towards them. I also think that you are focused on surface details that ultimately have very little to do with how good the game will be. A website is just a marketing tool. Trying to extrapolate from that to the actual design and build of a game is foolish.
 
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Draegan_sl

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Where was I extrapolating anything? I was just pointing out a good example of a dev putting his thoughts in writing about design principles. It goes no farther from that. Weirdo.
 
Grim1

Grim1

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You have been consistently panning this game because of the look of the website and your dislike of Mark's marketing style. There is nothing else to go on so you have extrapolated from that.
 
Pyksel

Pyksel

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Draegan I know you've given up on this game already but you ought to check out some of the ramblings of Andrew Meggs (one of the actual devs) as they are much better than what Mark is putting out there.
 
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Draegan_sl

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pyksel_sl said:
Draegan I know you've given up on this game already but you ought to check out some of the ramblings of Andrew Meggs (one of the actual devs) as they are much better than what Mark is putting out there.
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I don't take any game seriously until I see something in front of me. Hell I saw Wildstar in 2011 at Pax Prime and I panned it because it looked like a WOW clone. The demo there had you running around looking at quest hubs and "exploring" some high points. I met with the Sr. Community Manager at the time and decided not to get into the Wildstar fansite business at that point of time.

Then obviously with their ramp up this year, it completely changed my mind with what they've shown. Their PAX East presentation was pretty killer this year. I have enough confidence in the game that they will put out something worth while. Most likely very fun.

There really is only one developer I know of that I would actually put faith in if he started a company and put out a kickstarter. That guy is Scott Hartsman. The guy knows how to create a team, run a studio and put out fun games.

Grim1_sl said:
You have been consistently panning this game because of the look of the website and your dislike of Mark's marketing style. There is nothing else to go on so you have extrapolated from that.
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Why would you connect my previous comments about the game to me posting a good example of a developer posting about design theory/philosophy?
 
Grim1

Grim1

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Because you connect them. You have gone out of your way to pan Mark's design when all you are looking at is marketing hype.

This is circular. You don't like Mark or the type of game he is trying to create, so have prejudged his game way too early. That is foolish.

I'm in wait and see mode. When (IF) his kickstarter gets funded, and after they have made some real progress then I'll decide if the game sucks or not. That wont happen for a quite a while though.
 
Pyksel

Pyksel

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Mark just announced first stretch goal will include RvR based dungeon known as The Depths.



The Depths will house the following:
The Great Forge which sounds to be like a rare crafting station for your crafter classes.
Many things to scavenge, lots of rare mines, goodies, etc.
Access to NPC's that will allow you to setup as a Tower Defense style game for when the dungeon goes to switch ownership.
Places of Power which are used to setup traps and you can take control of low level NPC's and boss level NPC's to fight off the new invaders coming into the dungeon.
You'll only be able to level up in The Depths if you kill a player controlled NPC.
Crafters can setup something called Showtime that allows them to setup cameras in different locations to watch the action after the dungeon switches ownership (can also be used tactically to misdirect the enemy).
Access to something called "The Veil" (unknown at this point what this is)
Dungeon is supposed to be a living mechanic that changes scenery, traps, encounters, etc.
 
Abefroman

Abefroman

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Sounds interesting.

Man these Draegan, Grim1 derails are almost as annoying as the EQ ones.
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Gecko_sl

shitlord
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Abefroman_sl said:
I think there is some real head in the sand going on with this project. The budget and time frame just don't add up. I threw my money at it anyway just for the chance that it might work. Would be nice to have some diversity in the MMO genre.
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Yeah, I love everything they are promising about this game. I just can't support a former VP of EA getting my cash via kickstarter anymore than I can support crowdsourcing of Garriott's next space trip.

At least I expect Jacobs to launch a product and make cash, even if I bet it's meh. I don't see the new Ultima game even making it out the door. I may have to pony up for Camelot Unchained, though, to get my printed manual.

Grim1_sl said:
In the end they will most probably fail to deliver and you will run around screaming "I told you so" with maniacal glee. But until then that isn't going to stop us from hoping that they succeed.
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I still don't quite get Denaut's complete loathing of Jacobs and Draegan's full on support of his nastiness and desire for this game to fail. There's slamming something that has train wreck written all over it, a la Vanguard or FFIXV, which Draegan actually defended, and then there's making it personal. The attacks seem very personal, and for some reason make me think of this....

rrr_img_20631.gif
 
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Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
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It's not personal at all, it's more like insulted that so many people are falling it so deeply without reservation.

And FFXIV's changes are actually pretty good. It's probably going to turn out to be a decent game for a certain niche. The game is not for me at all, but I can see it's promise after actually playing it.
 
Denaut

Denaut

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Gecko_sl said:
I still don't quite get Denaut's complete loathing of Jacobs and Draegan's full on support of his nastiness and desire for this game to fail. There's slamming something that has train wreck written all over it, a la Vanguard or FFIXV, which Draegan actually defended, and then there's making it personal. The attacks seem very personal, and for some reason make me think of this....
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I've explained it already in a couple of posts but this thread is pretty long and rambling so I'll just quote myself:

Denaut_sl said:
Never worked with the guy, but if you go through the thread you will see that I think he represents everything that is wrong with the MMO industry and what is wrong with my profession, design, in particular.
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Denaut_sl said:
I was pretty neutral on the guy before CU because I never worked with him and really never paid any attention to what he did or said. Once I started reading his posts on Camelot Unchained it quickly became clear that he fit into the amateur clueless designer archetype I am all too familiar with.
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driedcatnip

N00b
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Grim1_sl said:
[...] marketing hype. [...]
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Draegan_sl said:
[...] so many people are falling it so deeply without reservation. [...]
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i'm annoyed that more people aren't annoyed at his marketing hype and seeing that it is just hype.
so little information allows for the mind filling it with idealistic/grandized/potential ideas.

how one finds his blogs/videos is subjective and isn't correlated to any outcome, but how anyone can see it other than embarassing is beyond me. as i mentioned earlier, that maybe that is the way to market and maybe i'm not the target audience; i'm just glad that i'm not affected by it character-wise. (and this coming from someone who wants it to succeed and who has played daoc far too much... .)
 
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Gecko_sl

shitlord
1,482
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Denaut_sl said:
I've explained it already in a couple of posts but this thread is pretty long and rambling so I'll just quote myself.

Never worked with the guy, but if you go through the thread you will see that I think he represents everything that is wrong with the MMO industry and what is wrong with my profession, design, in particular.
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There's hearing a guy is a dick, but to me you seem to have absolute contempt based on your blasting of him here. Sounds like there's a pretty good story here to be told.

As an aside, how many good Execs and Senior people are there in the MMO world at large? I've worked IT in Fortune 500 companies for a very long time and there are very few I'd place in the good category. I'm assuming gaming is even worse since the margins are tighter and the deadlines just as nasty, and the people often less qualified.
 
Utnayan

Utnayan

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Gecko_sl said:
As an aside, how many good Execs and Senior people are there in the MMO world at large?
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I think the more important aspect is why are the bad ones continue to move from company to company. With that said, not many. The MMORPG genre itself continues to recycle over and over again. It's also why we continue to see shitty game after shitty game, over and over again.

The good ones: Scott Hartsman, Shane Dabiri, Matt Higby.

The shit ones: Mark Jacobs, Matt Firor, Paul Sage, Rich Vogel, Jeff Butler, Brad McQuaid, Gordon Walton, Jeff Hickman, Dave Georgeson, Bill Fisher, Steve Danuser, James Ohlen, Raph Koster.

The problem with the shit list is they still have jobs and continue to be recycled.
 
Utnayan

Utnayan

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Draegan_sl said:
I'd give James Ohlen a break. He never did an MMORPG before SWTOR.
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That's not an excuse for the overabundance of BS he was spouting before GDC. And Last I checked, Jeff Kaplan and Afraisibai didn't have any game design experience * AT ALL *. And neither did anyone at Blizzard back in 1999-2004.

The "Has never done an MMORPG before" is an old hat scapegoat when the majority of the team were Ex-SOE/Mythic where all they have ever done was work on MMORPGs, and they still suck too. If anything it shows why top down marginalization of the actual designers within a game (Albeit some suck anyway) needs to stop.
 
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