Doctor Who

I love how this episode turned everything on it's head.

I can't wait for the 50th anniversary!

Well, that sure was a lot of wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff.

I am not a big River Song fan, and while I do think the episode could've been done without her, I will give Moffat credit in that it wasn't that bad. She did not piss me off this episode. So I suppose kudos for that.

As for the whole story, quite unexpected and terrific. I particularly liked how it explained Clara showing up where & when she did in all the other periods. Very clever, and done without hand waving.

Awesome ideas poorly implemented. They needed a whole episode of cutting Clara into old episodes, it looks like they did so little for tech reasons except... Star Trek did an entire episode like that YEARS ago in DS9.

I thought the story was cool but I don't think they've done enough to entrench Clara into people's hearts like they did with the Girl Who Waited. I'm not attached to her at all.

River is awesome. I love Alex Kingston and I hope she is in more episodes.

I liked River Song. I don't know why she gets so much hate. She was a strong female character that was able to keep the Doctor on somewhat of a leash when she was around.

Harshaw_sl said:

I liked River Song. I don't know why she gets so much hate. She was a strong female character that was able to keep the Doctor on somewhat of a leash when she was around.

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She also plays by a different set of rules, which might explain some of the hate.

I liked the episode. It did well in explaining Clara. I think the foil of the GI was shitty since it was used in, what, one episode and the Christmas special? It would have been one thing if he had kept cropping up during the season as a whole but it didn't so the impact was lessened in my eyes. Lead in to the 50th special is good but color me disgruntled at the gap between now and then and then and Series 8 which is currently slated for late 2014. As popular as DW is I'm surprised they don't do more to keep it closer to something like the USA Network serials which still maintain "seasons" but manage 6-8 episodes in two halves with no more than a few months between each half. Anyhoo, Matt Smith on for S8 as is Moffat but it appears this'll be the last hurrah for both.

Got a few theories running around in my head. Ill enlighten you with the main one. John Hurt came out and said that he was the Trinity/Time War doctor (i guess 8/9/10) hence the Victorian and leather mix. Ill stick with that nugget. Clara is The Doctors daughter (real one, not Jenny), I came to this conclusion because the exchange between River and The doctor felt similar to the one on Demons Run.

Now the variables: John Hurt is the Valeyard or the true #9. One thing helps the claim, one thing hurts it, both deal with the regeneration rules. It has been said time and again that the regeneration rule was thrown out the window, and that there may have been regens that happened before #1 or throughout the show that were never "recorded" (Smith could be #19 for all we know). If you go by cannon, and Hurt is 9, Smith would be 12 (Valeyard) which then makes no sense at all.

Clara could be a manifestation of all companions, a creation of the library, or a time lady. Basically Moffat could pull something out of his ass and it would make some sense.

PS. Moffat lied about Clara and the Doctor name reveal, or did I miss something?

i love river song. was so happy to see her come back, all her episodes are enjoyable, even that fucked up one when amy and rory got killed off. john hurt, i have no idea how he fits in all this, but im happy the old bloke is still doing stuff. his voice has been a part of tv shows and films i enjoyed for probably my whole life.

geffe71_sl said:

Got a few theories running around in my head. Ill enlighten you with the main one. John Hurt came out and said that he was the Trinity/Time War doctor (i guess 8/9/10) hence the Victorian and leather mix. Ill stick with that nugget. Clara is The Doctors daughter (real one, not Jenny), I came to this conclusion because the exchange between River and The doctor felt similar to the one on Demons Run.

Now the variables: John Hurt is the Valeyard or the true #9. One thing helps the claim, one thing hurts it, both deal with the regeneration rules. It has been said time and again that the regeneration rule was thrown out the window, and that there may have been regens that happened before #1 or throughout the show that were never "recorded" (Smith could be #19 for all we know). If you go by cannon, and Hurt is 9, Smith would be 12 (Valeyard) which then makes no sense at all.

Clara could be a manifestation of all companions, a creation of the library, or a time lady. Basically Moffat could pull something out of his ass and it would make some sense.

PS. Moffat lied about Clara and the Doctor name reveal, or did I miss something?

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As far as the show has shown so far, Clara is just a normal person who had the opportunity to jump in to the Doctor's time stream and became extraordinary because of it. We already know who her parents are, don't know hardly anything else, but the companion Clara seems to be the 'real' Clara and the others were the echos.

I agree with the current consensus that Hurt is the 'between' Doctor, between 8 and 9. But he's supposedly not 'The Doctor' since he doesn't do things the Doctor's way. So Matt Smith is the 11th 'Doctor' but the god-knows-how-many-eth regeneration. If he CHOSE the name of The Doctor, that implies the first Doctor could have been a regeneration of someone else even.

john hurt was introduced as the doctor.

"The Doctor" does not murder. Never has, never will. Hurt's Doctor not only murders, but has no qualms about it which is why he isn't "The Doctor" to the other 11 incarnations. This is definitely the Time War Doctor. After 8, before 9. The cheapest part of the setup was the last ep with the Cybermen when they point out that 2% of the Doctor's mind is shut off. The Doctor blocked off his memories even to himself of this Doctor, but it was otherwise setup really well. The best setups were things like Waters of Mars. If you have ANY doubt who this Doctor is, rewatch the last 5 minutes of Waters of Mars. It's also gotta be who the Doctor saw in Room 11: His worst nightmare.

The Doctor has rationalized his role in the end of the Time War, as simply being the one to end the madness. But he's always been so vague. In The Doctor's Daughter, and End of Time he admits to being a murderer, and even Davros was so horrified by the Doctor he screams at him as he burns to death claiming the Doctor is the Destroyer of Worlds. The Beast called him a killer of his own kind. Etc..etc... It never made any sense that sweet old retarded #8 could be the Time War Doctor. He probably was killed by Grace 15 seconds after the credits of the Doctor Who movie.

So were finally going to find out about it all.

I really need to rewatch the McGann tv movie, I remember fuck all about it other than him being in it and Eric Roberts.

I hope Ecclestone is slightly bluffing and although he refused to do the main show they at least got 30 seconds of footage of him swapping over from Hurt.

Amzin_sl said:

If he CHOSE the name of The Doctor, that implies the first Doctor could have been a regeneration of someone else even.

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This story isn't entirely canon, but it's backed up by the TV show, especially the Master in Sounds of Drums. I do not think there was ever an incarnation before the Doctor (despite Morbius asserting otherwise). Here's the paraphrased story:

It takes a long time to go from a child to a Time Lord. Time Tots stay in the system for hundreds of years. "The Doctor" wasn't always a good guy, but he also was never evil. He was a stupid kid who wanted to change the world like most kids do. His best friend as a child was the Master (End of Time) and they grew up together, gathering other Time Tots (don't think of kids, they were 30-100 years old) who wanted to overthrow the old regimes and return Gallifrey to it's former glory. The Doctor was their ringleader and he called these 10 Time Tots "The Deca". Eventually they stole a TARDIS and headed to the Medusa Cascade to do an ancient Gallifreyean ritual to choose their own names.

One by one the Doctor's "friends" got up there and talked of power and ambition each choosing a new name: The Rani, The Monk, etc.... Finally Korchei the Doctor's closest friend gets up there and with wild eyes claims, "I am the Master of All Time and Space". It's in this moment the Doctor realizes what he has done and the dark path he is travelling. He is the final one to stare out at the Medusa Cascade casting his old name into the Abyss as he claims very sarcastically and darkly..."I am the Doctor. Because clearly I have made you all so much better." He turns his back on them and shortly after becoming a real Time Lord he steals the TARDIS with Susan turning his back on this crazy world forever....and the show begins.


That doesn't mean there aren't 50 other incarnations before the Doctor. I like the story about "The Other", with Rassilon and Omega where the Doctor is actually one of the founders of Time Lord society. There's a lot of wibbly wobbly shit in between. But for my personal theories, I go with the story above.

Here's my question. Is none of the Doctor Who books/comics/audio adventures taken as canon? There's a couple of adventures with the 8th actively participating in the Time War. Is this just all taken as fabric?

Since it's been ask, and speaking only for myself, why the dislike for River Song. Let me clarify. I like Alex Kingston as an actor. I even like the character of River Song. What I hate about her is I think she's overused and overexposed.

If you discount Christmas specials from the total count, and you discard the two part Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead (from the previous lead's era),she appears in 12 episodes, (note that season 5, 6 & 7 have 13 then).

She appears in 30% of the episodes. Then look at the episodes she's in, either she's entirely unnecessary (imo she's entirely not needed in The Name of the Doctor), or she is the main focal point of the episode (The Impossible Astronaut, Day of the Moon, A Good Man Goes to War). And she's always the same; she knows stuff about the Doctor and one ups him, and always is secretly hiding something. That's her thing.

From the onset, her intro in Silence in the Library we knew her past is his future, and implied there was even more to it, like she was a companion (or even a love interest).Ok, that's new/interesting twist/cool. But that's not enough, so she ends up being a biological weapon used to kill the Doctor at some point.Ok, that's kinda pushing it, but sure. And, btw, she's also the daughter of Amy & Rory, the Doctor's current companions.Ok, now we're in soap opera levels of coincidences/connections. Oh, and ALSO btw, since she was conceived onboard the Tardis, she also happens to have Timelord like abilities to regenerate, even though she's human and she'll use her remaining lives to save the Doctor's current incarnation.Well now, that's convenient.

At least she didn't end up being someone's evil twin who took over someone elses life when the good twin is put in a coma due to a skydiving accident. If that's not too much, then call me crazy.

If she had appeared once or twice a season, or even became a full time companion for some time, that would've been more fitting.

Asmadai_sl said:

Here's my question. Is none of the Doctor Who books/comics/audio adventures taken as canon? There's a couple of adventures with the 8th actively participating in the Time War. Is this just all taken as fabric?

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I like what RTD said:

Everything is canon. RTD claimed he had no more right to decide what is or isn't than anyone else. So make up your mind. Wish I could find the quote, it's a great discussion about how he likes all the books, but can't include them in the TV show.

That being said....if it isn't on the TV show, it isn't canon. But a lot of things get confirmed after the fact on TV. There was a LONG time in 2005+ that the 8th Doctor wasn't canon at all. RTD wasn't a fan and never mentioned him until the Next Doctor.

edit:

while on the subject.... RTD liked to fuck with people. Before he was the show runner he personally subscribed to the Master is the Doctor's brother. A theory I HATED. In Smith and Jones he seemed to confirm this when Jones asked the Doctor if he had a brother and he said "not anymore". Fans went nuts said RTD confirmed it. Later that same season the Master shows up and Smith says "I thought you were going to say he was your secret brother." Jack Harkness and the Doctor look at her with shock and dismay... The Doctor says "You watch too much TV"

Hilarious.

Ok, now I realize the Clara reveal after you explained it, made sense.

I am still of the school of thought that the Regeneration rule is semi bullshit. The Master is one example and if you go by the 13 Rule (without Hurt) there actually 12 or possibly 13 regenerations in the show (including human doctor and either 10 or11 using regenerative power at will to heal himself). If you include Hurts Doctor it is 13/14. It all depends on what you believe. Like I said earlier, I think Moffat of RTD mentioned that the regeneration rule was written out of the show

EDIT: or the timelords bend the rules becuase they can

Throughout the revived series, there have been hints (as mentioned by others above me) that The Doctor did what he must during the Time War. Another episode reference I did not see above was The Doctors Wife. The planet said "Fear me, ive killed hundreds of Time Lords". The Doctor said "Fear me, ive killed them all"

Jait_sl said:

while on the subject.... RTD liked to fuck with people. Before he was the show runner he personally subscribed to the Master is the Doctor's brother. A theory I HATED. In Smith and Jones he seemed to confirm this when Jones asked the Doctor if he had a brother and he said "not anymore". Fans went nuts said RTD confirmed it. Later that same season the Master shows up and Smith says "I thought you were going to say he was your secret brother." Jack Harkness and the Doctor look at her with shock and dismay... The Doctor says "You watch too much TV"

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I always thought that was him referring to The Master as like a brother, as they were like brothers on Gallifrey.

All in all, I really hope they don't jump the shark with this John Hurt thing. Having him be some mysterious forgotten regeneration that doesn't really count as a regeneration, or the "true 9th" as the rumors have said which throws off all numberings past 9 would just irk me and probably a lot of other fans.

That being said, I don't think people need to take John Hurt's 'reveal' in the tabloids to heart. He stated he was playing a part of a trinity, with Tennant and Smith - I don't think that means he's some amalgam of 3 Doctors rolled into one, I think he meant simply that he is playing in an episode that's going to have 3 Doctors in it.

But back to the 'which regeneration is Hurt' question - please, please, please, just do something simple - as I suggested before, make him the 8th Doctor grown old; the 8th Doctor right before the end of the Time War. Ignoring all other non-TV stories, re-numbering the Doctors, or having him be a forgotten regeneration...gah, even saying it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.