EQ Never

slicedmass_sl said:

I was talking to my bro about eqn and he made a great point. They wanted to get rid of the holy trinity to solve a problem of things like (its hard to find a healer, our healer left the guild etc) but they solved that with class switching and the fact u can level any class regardless of the class you are currently playing. Cant find a healer? Okay I'll be the healer till be find a dedicated one and I will level my rogue while I'm doing that. Or we take turns being a healer until we find the guy that likes that ability and wants to focus on it and be better because hes more geard/dedicated to being good as a healer. Still they found that they have to throw trinity out the window even though they had solved their conundrum.

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Because atm its the "cool" thing to do. But yes they had it solved with their class system.

Teekey_sl said:

Even in EverQuest you had a whole spellbook of spells, but you ended up using the 8 best onesallthe time - so why really design much more for any single class?

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Actually no, it depended on what you needed. As a wizard for example, in AE groups I loaded the spells for that, Quad kiting had its own set, groups another set, raids almost used the same set as group depending on the boss. And that was as a pure dps, the other classes was probably a lot more robust.

qwerty_sl said:

It's possible, but I am sure everything will die in 2 seconds. And when I played GW2 (after beta 3 and beyond), stuff did die more or less like that promo video.

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See, that actually wouldn't be too bad - there's room for a diablo style group combat experience.

GW2 wasn't that though - group PVE was boss mobs that took 5+ minutes to kill while constantly running in circles and rolling all over the place. It was also the worst group PVE I have ever experienced. I suspect it is that fact that is causing a lot of the backlash - I doubt anyone who has played GW2 wants a repeat of that bullshit, and most of the info coming out so far is pointing right at it.

velk_sl said:

I see a few mentions of 'advance as warrior' etc, was there any mention of what that actually involved ? Find/unlock new skills ? Increase hp ? Increase attributes ?

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Yes, as far as we know (it's a little unclear just how many skills an individual class actually has, but I think there is actual skill acquisition).

Actually, for that matter, any mention of whether they even have character attributes ?

I'm assuming it's of the 'mana is too complicated for our players' variety, but is it gw2 long cooldown style, generic fast recovering resource style or spam those hotkeys like an eq1 bard style ?

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They mention having stamina, or a similar resource, for skills. As for attributes, they exist, but not on gear; so stat increases will be things you can find out in the world, similar to classes or skills, and apparently increasing one of your stats will be a Big Deal.

velk_sl said:

I see a few mentions of 'advance as warrior' etc, was there any mention of what that actually involved ? Find/unlock new skills ? Increase hp ? Increase attributes ?

Actually, for that matter, any mention of whether they even have character attributes ?

I'm assuming it's of the 'mana is too complicated for our players' variety, but is it gw2 long cooldown style, generic fast recovering resource style or spam those hotkeys like an eq1 bard style ?

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There will still be some progressing of classes through tiers. Although it's not by killing X number of mobs, or doing Y number of quests to fill up an experience bar. Instead you progress by meeting specific milestones for that class. One example they gave was that you could reach Warrior Tier 3 by collecting a full set of [Warrior Tier 3 Armor] from adventuring. Additionally, you don't have to play the class that you're progressing. You can pursue the Warrior armor while playing as a Mage with your friends.

There are attributes in the game, but from what I read armor does not give attributes. Instead, armor will have a bigger affect on abilities. The example they gave was a ring that decreased the energy consumption of a Rogue shadow-teleport, which allowed better synchronization with their other abilities. I believe they said attributes would be gained through exploration and other methods. All attributes would also be helpful for all classes. The example they gave the Intelligence increasing the swing radiance of a Warrior's 2H-Sword attacks.

As for the last question - we really don't know. All they've said that that they want combat to be more movement and action oriented. They want tactics to matter more than specific roles. And that you should group with people because they're skilled players, not because they're a specific role.

slicedmass_sl said:

I was talking to my bro about eqn and he made a great point. They wanted to get rid of the holy trinity to solve a problem of things like (its hard to find a healer, our healer left the guild etc) but they solved that with class switching and the fact u can level any class regardless of the class you are currently playing. Cant find a healer? Okay I'll be the healer till we find a dedicated one and I will level my rogue while I'm doing that. Or we take turns being a healer until we find the guy that likes that ability and wants to focus on it and be better because hes more geared/dedicated to being good as a healer. Still they found that they have to throw trinity out the window even though they had solved their conundrum.

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yes, but they also said that you won't need a healer in this game specifically, or a tank or whatever, so have no idea how that's even going to work out. i see it as everyone doing dps just like GW2, and i honestly don't see how this works out any other way if there aren't specified or necessary classes. if you can unlock all the classes in the game eventually, then eventually you will have them all at your disposal and just switch on the fly, which is really, really, really retarded. i understand what they're trying to do, i just don't see it working out when it's actually implemented. they can spin this all they want, i just think when it's implemented people are going to realize it's just GW2 all over again.

ThunderCougarFalconBird_sl said:

I think 4 (8 total with weapon slots) is a bit thin. I'm also a bit worried about having to always switch up my class b/c the next pack I come across isn't viable as the class I'm currently playing. Otherwise I'm pretty optimistic about the whole thing.

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I'm not disagreeing with you, however I'd like to provide an example of something I currently experience with EQ on P99. I play a wizard. I am ultimately bound to the 8 spell gems I have access to. Those 8 gems limit me to 8 spells available to me "right now". My spellbook has over 40 spells in it. My spell gems rarely have the same loadout for each situation. I also sometimes need to change one or two on the fly (many times at the risk of instant aggro, which could also mean instant death for me.)

What I'm saying is that I as the player have to make some intelligent choices about what skills (in this case, spells) I have available to me immediately. This is one area that helps me identify myself as being effective. Did I choose the right loadout for my current objective? Am I willing to risk mine and my groups death on that choice? Casters in early everquest survived on 8 essential skill slots (spell gems). They had the ability to change them on the fly (including in combat!). For me, I appreciate the fellow player who made intelligent choices on his/her available abilities to the current challenge we are facing. I also like that I have the option (again, possibly with some risk) to make intelligent choices to modify my loadout as needed.

As my final example, I never, ever have an evac loaded on my bar while in dungeons. Sometimes they are needed. Sometimes I am able to risk aggro by sitting to open my book and load it. Sometimes I die as a result. I risk a safety net for the group by having more spells that, in my opinion, increase my groups chances of overcoming the encounter rather than retreating from it. Something so simple as a limited amount of abilities available to me in any given situation allow me to "risk" having a possibly more dangerous loadout for a higher "reward".

I'd ask then, if 8 is too little, what is an acceptable number and why do you feel that way? When should I have access to my other skills that are currently not loaded? I feel like 8 is a good number because 8 is what I know.

Edit - You posted this as I was posting, and it completely reinforces what I was trying to convey.

cinge_sl said:

Actually no, it depended on what you needed. As a wizard for example, in AE groups I loaded the spells for that, Quad kiting had its own set, groups another set, raids almost used the same set as group depending on the boss. And that was as a pure dps, the other classes was probably a lot more robust.

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ThunderCougarFalconBird_sl said:

I think 40 classes is probably a bit of a gimmick, being that their skill sets are so small, you could take GenericMeleeClass01 and chop it up into 3-4 EQN classes. And while I don't prefer 10x hotbars full of nearly-identical skills, I think 4 (8 total with weapon slots) is a bit thin. I'm also a bit worried about having to always switch up my class b/c the next pack I come across isn't viable as the class I'm currently playing. Otherwise I'm pretty optimistic about the whole thing.

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Don't recall hearing much about it during the reveal but if they're still going for ps4 release as well, it isn't practical to have a large number of abilities. As long as they're unique enough it's not that big of a deal and I prefer that to the whack a mole combat in a lot of today's mmos.

Also if they make different classes depend on different gear that goes a long way towards everyone being everything all the time. Even within a archetype. Like an assassin would get the most out of a stealth stat while a thief would still use the stealth stat, but would get more out of the cunning stat.

velk_sl said:

I see a few mentions of 'advance as warrior' etc, was there any mention of what that actually involved ? Find/unlock new skills ? Increase hp ? Increase attributes ?

Actually, for that matter, any mention of whether they even have character attributes ?

I'm assuming it's of the 'mana is too complicated for our players' variety, but is it gw2 long cooldown style, generic fast recovering resource style or spam those hotkeys like an eq1 bard style ?

Click to expand...

They haven't said it exactly what the difference between a tier 1 and a tier 5 warrior would be. If I had to guess, the main difference would be access to better abilities and equipment. Guessing again, kinda like how you unlock more abilities in a class as you level up in gw2, it will be the same as you progress in tiers in EQN.

slicedmass_sl said:

I was talking to my bro about eqn and he made a great point. They wanted to get rid of the holy trinity to solve a problem of things like (its hard to find a healer, our healer left the guild etc) but they solved that with class switching and the fact u can level any class regardless of the class you are currently playing. Cant find a healer? Okay I'll be the healer till we find a dedicated one and I will level my rogue while I'm doing that. Or we take turns being a healer until we find the guy that likes that ability and wants to focus on it and be better because hes more geared/dedicated to being good as a healer. Still they found that they have to throw trinity out the window even though they had solved their conundrum.

Click to expand...

That doesn't really solve the problem though. The same thing happens in other MMOs right now. Any guild that doesn't have any wiggle room for members basically has to have a stable of alts of all roles ready to fill in. What's the difference between progressing and gearing up every healer on a single character, or leveling up a separate alt? There really is none.

I'm skeptical if their AI can really be good enough to make the Holy Trinity unnecessary, so we'll really just have to wait and see.

There are a lot of shit I don't get about the new games coming out. I will only address a few..

In which part exactly did the industry decide that subscription based games is a business plan that has to change?

Did the masses suddenly become poor and can not afford a minimum fee each month anymore or did the devs become incapable of making a game that truly delivers and therefore worth people's money?

I don't feel comfortable with this f2p idea where every 10 year old kid, instead of doing whatever his age dictates doing, feels like logging in and messing around.

I mean don't get me wrong, even if there's some 10 year old kid playing, with a payed subscription by his father or w/e, this is a lot different. It has some sort of responsibility involved,in comparison to anybody logging in, anytime to fuck around.
This lowers the overall quality of the whole community imo.

One more thing that's bogging me is this obsession the devs of the newer games have.
An obsession about inventing something entirely new that will bring to the genre and cause the masses to go "wow" over it.
These attempts to pull mushrooms out their asses and impress everyone, only leads to more failures!
Why can't they just stick to things that have worked in the past, only implement them much better?!

Soe has clearly lost its touch to the genre in my eyes. Sounds so darn lousy to ask from the community to make the content. It's like the devs run out of ideas and were like "hey we don't have a clue how a successful game must be to appeal the people, so let's put them to make the game they like to play".


Quite disappointed.

Madruk_sl said:

I'm not disagreeing with you, however I'd like to provide an example of something I currently experience with EQ on P99. I play a wizard. I am ultimately bound to the 8 spell gems I have access to. Those 8 gems limit me to 8 spells available to me "right now". My spellbook has over 40 spells in it. My spell gems rarely have the same loadout for each situation. I also sometimes need to change one or two on the fly (many times at the risk of instant aggro, which could also mean instant death for me.)

What I'm saying is that I as the player have to make some intelligent choices about what skills (in this case, spells) I have available to me immediately. This is one area that helps me identify myself as being effective. Did I choose the right loadout for my current objective? Am I willing to risk mine and my groups death on that choice? Casters in early everquest survived on 8 essential skill slots (spell gems). They had the ability to change them on the fly (including in combat!). For me, I appreciate the fellow player who made intelligent choices on his/her available abilities to the current challenge we are facing. I also like that I have the option (again, possibly with some risk) to make intelligent choices to modify my loadout as needed.

As my final example, I never, ever have an evac loaded on my bar while in dungeons. Sometimes they are needed. Sometimes I am able to risk aggro by sitting to open my book and load it. Sometimes I die as a result. I risk a safety net for the group by having more spells that, in my opinion, increase my groups chances of overcoming the encounter rather than retreating from it. Something so simple as a limited amount of abilities available to me in any given situation allow me to "risk" having a possibly more dangerous loadout for a higher "reward".

I'd ask then, if 8 is too little, what is an acceptable number and why do you feel that way? When should I have access to my other skills that are currently not loaded? I feel like 8 is a good number because 8 is what I know.

Edit - You posted this as I was posting, and it completely reinforces what I was trying to convey.

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you play a wizard in dungeon groups and don't have evac loaded? the fuck kind of wiz are you? i hope you don't use that as a selling point when LFG, cause that is one of the only spells that made wizards viable in dungeon crawls. that was the ONE spell i always had loaded when i was in a non raid dungeon group.

Madruk_sl said:

I'm not disagreeing with you, however I'd like to provide an example of something I currently experience with EQ on P99.

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This is an absolutely great point. I know people have had concerns of every person just having a heal in EverQuest Next - but that's where the risk and reward comes in. If you have a heal that goes unused, you're missing out on some other ability that may be necessary for a specific situation, or could provide more benefit overall.

nfeel_sl said:

In which part exactly did the industry decide that subscription based games is a business plan that has to change?

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It's the DotA2/TF2/LoL model - get as many players as possible and some percentage of them are guaranteed to pay for something.

It's the only way for the sub-par MMOs that have been released in the past decade to pull in a sustainable userbase, and thus potential customers.

nfeel_sl said:

Soe has clearly lost its touch to the genre in my eyes. Sounds so darn lousy to ask from the community to make the content. It's like the devs run out of ideas and were like "hey we don't have a clue how a successful game must be to appeal the people, so let's put them to make the game they like to play".

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I really wonder how much will be included. I'm not guessing that much. But there's always the people who want to contribute to every game. They always have ideas for new classes, new raids, etc. It's way to let that hardcore creative group feel like they're involved and contributing beyond just making long forum posts that go unnoticed by everyone. The best 1% of creations might actually be able to be utilized, if that.

Teekey_sl said:

That doesn't really solve the problem though. The same thing happens in other MMOs right now. Any guild that doesn't have any wiggle room for members basically has to have a stable of alts of all roles ready to fill in. What's the difference between progressing and gearing up every healer on a single character, or leveling up a separate alt? There really is none.

I'm skeptical if their AI can really be good enough to make the Holy Trinity unnecessary, so we'll really just have to wait and see.

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Hopefully they can realize their stance that these situations are only a "social restriction"(their words, in the panel) and that the game doesn't require it. And yes, I realize it's only a "social requirement" in things like WoW because the game is designed around it. I completely agree that a truly solid AI could go a long way to moving us beyond the absolute need for the trinity. Even if they don't pull it off, the fact that they are attempting it (or claiming to) is exciting to me.

etchazz_sl said:

you play a wizard in dungeon groups and don't have evac loaded? the fuck kind of wiz are you? i hope you don't use that as a selling point when LFG, cause that is one of the only spells that made wizards viable in dungeon crawls. that was the ONE spell i always had loaded when i was in a non raid dungeon group.

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Different strokes I suppose. I've never seen a real need for it. Some wizards are considered bad for having it loaded, some aren't. I've done well without it, however I'm certainly not condemning wizards who keep it loaded!

nfeel_sl said:

There are a lot of shit I don't get about the new games coming out. I will only address a few..

In which part exactly did the industry decide that subscription based games is a business plan that has to change?

Did the masses suddenly become poor and can not afford a minimum fee each month anymore or did the devs become incapable of making a game that truly delivers and therefore worth people's money?

I don't feel comfortable with this f2p idea where every 10 year old kid, instead of doing whatever his age dictates doing, feels like logging in and messing around.

I mean don't get me wrong, even if there's some 10 year old kid playing, with a payed subscription by his father or w/e, this is a lot different. It has some sort of responsibility involved,in comparison to anybody logging in, anytime to fuck around.
This lowers the overall quality of the whole community imo.

One more thing that's bogging me is this obsession the devs of the newer games have.
An obsession about inventing something entirely new that will bring to the genre and cause the masses to go "wow" over it.
These attempts to pull mushrooms out their asses and impress everyone, only leads to more failures!
Why can't they just stick to things that have worked in the past, only implement them much better?!

Soe has clearly lost its touch to the genre in my eyes. Sounds so darn lousy to ask from the community to make the content. It's like the devs run out of ideas and were like "hey we don't have a clue how a successful game must be to appeal the people, so let's put them to make the game they like to play".


Quite disappointed.

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Games that went f2p had their profits go up dramatically. So companies that like money went that route

nfeel_sl said:

There are a lot of shit I don't get about the new games coming out. I will only address a few..

In which part exactly did the industry decide that subscription based games is a business plan that has to change?

Did the masses suddenly become poor and can not afford a minimum fee each month anymore or did the devs become incapable of making a game that truly delivers and therefore worth people's money?

I don't feel comfortable with this f2p idea where every 10 year old kid, instead of doing whatever his age dictates doing, feels like logging in and messing around.

I mean don't get me wrong, even if there's some 10 year old kid playing, with a payed subscription by his father or w/e, this is a lot different. It has some sort of responsibility involved,in comparison to anybody logging in, anytime to fuck around.
This lowers the overall quality of the whole community imo.

One more thing that's bogging me is this obsession the devs of the newer games have.
An obsession about inventing something entirely new that will bring to the genre and cause the masses to go "wow" over it.
These attempts to pull mushrooms out their asses and impress everyone, only leads to more failures!
Why can't they just stick to things that have worked in the past, only implement them much better?!

Soe has clearly lost its touch to the genre in my eyes. Sounds so darn lousy to ask from the community to make the content. It's like the devs run out of ideas and were like "hey we don't have a clue how a successful game must be to appeal the people, so let's put them to make the game they like to play".


Quite disappointed.

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Excellent 1st post.

Cheers.

Smed said in that 3 min Video that Next would be FTP however I would be shocked if they don't offer some type of sub deal both monthly as well as every 3,6,12 months deals.
Now more then likely they will have some type of Sub deal but they will call it something else PR wise and with your sub you get to login faster, extra slots, 500 station cash per month etc.
Bare in mind SOE needs to have a game that players on SOE all access deal will want to pay for as well, even if they have to move SOE all access pass back to 29.99 per month.
The SOE all access pass needs this to be a homerun hit, then they could even maybe move back to 29.99 per month.

I have had SOE all access pass since day 1 they offered it, and I renew it yearly its cheapest that way, I had it even when it was 29.99 per month, as soon they added it with Eq2 and galaxies launch I got it, it was so fucking long ago could not tell you the date.

SOE with this being full bore FTP will still want to have sub money, SOE all access, cash shop since its cartoon models they probally sell stuff animals of the races, some classes as well not joking on that.
SOE may even have lockboxes drop like they have in VG now as well as STO, Neverwinter does then you need a key sold in the cash shop to open them.

I am kinda of surprised that Smed said it will be FTP, I am not in the sense Knew they would let everyone get in to try it, so they can sell them lots of stuff in the cash shop as well as sub that they will call another name.
Reason is say surprised is SOE has always charged for the initial game say Next has a regular version and deleuxe as well as a collectors they would sell copies for 39$ 59$ and 89$ etc depending on which you wanted if they sold 500,00 copies of the deluxe at 59 a pop then that's a lot of money they would make all at once to get the devs cost for making the game back faster, before all the cash shop money starts as well as the subs.

Then as SOE does expansions for Next they would sell them to you like BTP like they currently do in eq and eq 2 etc.

So I am still wondering even though he said Next is Ftp if he will change that to BTP this way every player has to buy the initial game, full Ftp will get way higher numbers of people and think this is where he is going, as said with sometime sub option gold that gets you bunch of perks with it, as well as soe all access pass for it as well that is like gold version.

Cheers.

Madruk_sl said:

Different strokes I suppose. I've never seen a real need for it. Some wizards are considered bad for having it loaded, some aren't. I've done well without it, however I'm certainly not condemning wizards who keep it loaded!

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The joys of exodus and not having to have it waste a spell gem

etchazz_sl said:

you play a wizard in dungeon groups and don't have evac loaded? the fuck kind of wiz are you? i hope you don't use that as a selling point when LFG, cause that is one of the only spells that made wizards viable in dungeon crawls. that was the ONE spell i always had loaded when i was in a non raid dungeon group.

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Sorry for derail but i have to add to this, cuz this dude has probably made a lot of people's lives miserable with this viewpoint.

I would straight up choke any fucking wiz that didn't have evac memmed and our group wiped. PLEASE enlighten me as to what that 8th magical wiz spell is that might 'save' your group instead of evac?

You do realize that one of the only reasons wiz/Druids got invited to groups in high end classic EQ was for evac, right?

cinge_sl said:

The joys of exodus and not having to have it waste a spell gem

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Yep! Add instant group cammo for rangers and druids to that list as well. Many of the changes made with AA were touted as quality of life changes, but for me, they just lessened my ability to prioritize my loadout in a meaningful way.

At a certain point on live I had 10 (or more? I forget) spell gems and half the stuff I MIGHT have put on my bar was available as an instant AA. It got to a point where I literally didn't have anything useful to put in a gem or so. Everything I could possibly need was available in my first 8 slots plus my AA's. (Speaking as a ranger here.)