EQ Never

zzeris_sl said:

Lithose,

Yes, I am. In many ancient societies, command led from the front line. Logistics did nothing to help during the battle so the value it held during the battle was minimal to non existant. Healers do much more than logistical support in these games. Bad comparison. Archers is a better one. Greeks only really used a front line and not much else. The Romans also used similar tactics but they found superior close combat tactics overall. Many battles were won psychologically without tactics playing the over-riding difference we suppose. Tactics has always been about finding the best ground, using surprise as much as possible, and knowing when to push small advantages for maximum profit. I know your point but don't use the Holy Trinity as an evolutionary fact of history when it's just a convienient system in MMOs.

This is a fantasy game. The giant ogre will only stop going after the guy who fried his balls if you hamstring him, stab him in the ass,etc. That involves a variant of back and forth pinball stuff people are scared of. The tank should save his aggro type attacks for defensive use. Make the guy THINK. THAT I can get behind. Yelling at him? Fuck that dumb shit.

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Command lead from the font lines? Not really. In some VERY archaic societies it would, but then, you know, tactics were developed. And again, it's NOT just ONE thing, it's not just command--How about the supply chain? Did they push that into the front line, as well? Why don't you ask the Germans in surrounding Moscow how "emergent" tactics worked for them when their abstracted "healers" (Supplies) couldn't get them new clothes? How about when the ran out of mana (Fuel, proper gun powder, guns ect)?

Also, more on "Command led from the front". It was a rarity, usually agenerallead from the front, while a supreme commander viewed from the rear. And again, this is abstraction--Command isn't the sum of it, it's supplying men at arms with everything needed to fight. A healer, and support is the summation of ALL those things, not just one. And it's not abstracted down to JUST the healer, either--even your charactersHPis an abstraction of supply, toughness, luck, troops and a ton of other aspects of real world fighting (because again, no one wants to be the guy who got stepped on by the ogre so his friend could flank, your HP lets you abstract both people in that scenario).

As for the "holy trinity" being an evolutionary fact? I said humans tend to fight with troops in the front, supply/logistics in the back. The trinity is an abstraction of that--because it developed FROM the different abstractions we have *ALREADY* made to play the game (Again, like the concept of HP or generalized targeting). That's a pretty big difference from what you're saying. The trinity is simply the most efficient function given the changes we've accepted previously to make the game playable in a manner commiserate with out enjoyment--like a drop of water falling vs being in a larger pool, same molecules, different environment, so they take a new shape.

Make the guy THINK. THAT I can get behind. Yelling at him? Fuck that dumb shit.

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Again, taunt itself is an abstraction of TONS of elements. Most notably it's because in the real world, there are no HP. As you said, the Ogre isn't going to run past someone if it thinks it's going to get a pike in it's asshole. There are rationalities at play here that have been translated into MANY systems in the game. Trying to say it's silly for the Ogre to NOT go after the healer, ignores all these levels of abstraction--and just focuses on one. It's myopic.

The fact is front lines are secured for tons of reasons. Characters have hit points for tons of reasons. Healers have abstracted down supply lines and the normal "months" long recuperation time of soldiers for tons of reasons. But the fact is, it's NOT one level of abstraction. Saying that the trinity is the source of any problem, when the trinity was the SOLUTION to various abstraction issues, is like saying antibiotics are the cause of an underlying infection just because people happen to take them when they are sick.

tad10_sl said:

Heading out here our my final thoughts on soe live/eqnext. I think soe has missed an opportunity for a hat trick and we, the player base, need to "help" them.

EQN - awesome for mmo pvpers. Dumar and Nirgon will go nuts when soe reveals the game is sullon type pvp.

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youve piqued my interest good sir.

tad, did you hear anything about aggro, death penalties, etc?

supertouch_sl said:

death penalties

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the q&a just clarified that they exactly know how they're approaching death, but will not answer the question at this time.

tad10_sl said:

Heading out here our my final thoughts on soe live/eqnext. I think soe has missed an opportunity for a hat trick and we, the player base, need to "help" them.

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You honestly expect them to release 3 entire games? Really?

They still have a metric shit ton of work on their hands to just complete EverQuest Next.

Azeth_sl said:

the q&a just clarified that they exactly know how they're approaching death, but will not answer the question at this time.

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We know alchemy is working bros, we're not willing to discuss how at this time though.

Lithose_sl said:

We know alchemy is working bros, we're not willing to discuss how at this time though.

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I love how on twitter and shit everyone, especially Georgeson, was like "Omg I can't wait to talk about everything, I've had to be tight lipped for so long, omg I can't wait to talk!"

Tempest is a Protoss siege unit. It comes from a Stargate, and is available once the Fleet Beacon has been placed down. Unit is a slow moving capital ship with very powerful siege weapons and incredible range, but is very slow and can be countered by low hp high dps units, such as the marine and hydralisk!

They said the set of class abilities were 4 slots mixed with defense,movement,damage and utility. The way I see them getting around having a dedicated tank is something like this.

Class 1 has 3 defense cooldowns. Class 2,3,4 have 1 defense cool downs.
You have a fight that requires say a crystal to be held off the ground or the boss does triple damage or some shit. When you are holding the crystal you need to use defense cooldowns to block the damage or you die and you need to use 3 every minute to not wipe but each cooldown is 1 minute refresh. So you can either have 1 person playing a class with 3 cooldowns on their bar or 3 people with 1 cooldown each tossing around the crystal. The reduction in damage from the "tank" using 3 cooldowns would be offset by the fact that the group doesnt have to juggle the crystal.

Teekey_sl said:

You honestly expect them to release 3 entire games? Really?

They still have a metric shit ton of work on their hands to just complete EverQuest Next.

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That's the beauty. Most of the stuff for eqn can be reused for eq3. And the players will help building in landmark.

God, I hope they don't implement the FFXI mechanic where shops close down at night because "merchants don't like the night". That shit was annoying as hell.

Menion_sl said:

God, I hope they don't implement the FFXI mechanic where shops close down at night because "merchants don't like the night". That shit was annoying as hell.

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that would actually be pretty cool.

Zehn - Vhex_sl said:

The reason has more to do with the current state of the market. I know most posters on this forum are Mr. Moneybags who can afford to hire private dancers to grind levels for them and whatnot but for the average Joe out there money is tight. People pushing for subs like to do that stupid "lol a movie lasts 2 hours and costs 60 surely you can spend 15 on an MMO!" comparison but the more apt comparison is right now I have like 57 fucking games on my phone and I haven't paid a fucking dime. Of the 2~3 hours a day I have to spend on games probably 30 of it is spent just on coming up with words for this fucking hangman game my entire family plays. Dynasty Warriors 8 just came out recently and is fucking fantastic so I'm playing that for an hour or so. My Wife and I are pushing to finally finish Diablo 3 after spending a year without computers and internet. I never actually finished Skyrim and have just reinstalled that as well.

Which leaves me with pretty much zero time for an MMO and even if I had some extra time here and there to play do you think I'm going to commit to 15 bucks a month? It makes no economical sense.

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The problem I have with this is it's not really a constructive argument for or against, it's just your reason why a sub is bad for you personally. The movie comparison is far more apt than your example too. For me, I imagine the games I have downloaded for free on my phone number in the hundreds, but how many have I actually played past an hour or so, less than 10. And how many do I have on my phone currently? 1 - wordfeud which I play with my partner and a few friends. There are plenty of people in your boat, granted - but I believe there is also a market for sub based people who don't want to play all the crap you are playing, they will put the bulk of their time into a decent sub based mmo.

supertouch_sl said:

that would actually be pretty cool.

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It's not trust me. Say you stopped in town to sell or craft and had to stand around for 40 minutes because it was night time and all the merchants were closed. How cool is it then? It wasn't fun in FFXI.

zzeris_sl said:

Lithose,

I understand your point but using the german example is ignorant. Going to war expecting to beat a gigantic country in months while wearing summer outfits is short-sighted but has nothing to do with the supply chain. Supply didn't fuck up, command did. I don't like to use modern war theories to push my fantasy tropes either but i'm more than willing to discuss war tactics in some PMs. Always interesting stuff.

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Command overextended the ability to supply. The healer ran out of mana. Abstraction.Whose fault it was, isirrelevantto the discussion. The German example is only ignorant if it's point is completely missed. The point being: the tanks (Front line troops) couldn't have their HP (Supplies) refilled because of a logistics (Healing) problem (Caused by a Leeroy Jenkins of tactical blunders)--understand? Who cares whose fault it was? We're talking about video game abstraction

. Almost all human fighting has been abstracted in video games, the trinity was and still is, a solution to MANY differentlevels of abstraction. Trying to pick one out, is as myopic as saying the trinity sucks. It's ONE layer of a large problem. The point is to view it in it's abstract sense. (Which is like above, the point wasn't whose fault it was, the point was showing how abstraction translates across many different aspects of a real scenario to create a fantasy--it's symbolism.)

zzeris_sl said:

A true front line isn't one guy in armor or even 4-5 when 20+ people are all around. Trinity elements make sense but not for every fight. Why couldn't there be a fight where 40 DPS are needed? Where the mob is so physically powerful tanks can't just sit there and absorb damage. Does a system of 2+2=4 have to be the end all or could 1+3, 8-4, 1.5+2.5, etc fit the bill? Why KISS forever? I don't want stupid abstractions of fighting to be the end all. I see the taunt button. Why can't it just be the 'ream asshole' button? Same function really but can the developers put some effort in please?

I don't think the trinity needs to go bye-bye. I'd like other options though and more effort applied. I'm willing to see if they can pull it off.

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That's all fair, the reason this is being discussed though is because the only insight we were given was essentially "no healers!" Trying to kill the trinity by simply stripping out a type of game play, usually leads to really shitty game play. Like I said, the trinity is a solution to various problems abstraction has caused.

You can get rid of the rigid nature of it....Like I said earlier, if you're willing to give the tools out to people, and say, you want a group of Wizards to be able to ice wall something in, drop it into a pit and then nuke it from orbit? That's great, Iloveit, in fact. But that kind of gameplay relies on a level of AI no game has even come close to, because it's pretty easy to exploit..and in that type of game, the trinity would still be viable, it just wouldn't be theonlything that's viable. So a developer essentially saying there "won't" be a trinity in the game, really leads me to feel uneasy, because it doesn't sound like the game will be more open, but rather they think smashing pure healers will be enough to make it so their combat is "dynamic"--which didn't play out well in GW2, surprise surprise, because it's like thinking you can build a house from the roof down, healers aren't the problem, they are a solution to the real problem.

In other words, if you believe you can "smash" the trinity, then you should be fine with having pure healers, because if your combat is good and open enough, players will choose for themselves not to use them.

Wait, what just was said about PvP? I can forgive a lot if the gameplay is good.

Absolute bullshit that they have a clue on what the death penalty and or PVP will be like.

For weeks now they've been saying they can't wait to blow their wad at this SOE event and then other than "we re mixing in minecraft and the gw2 combat no trinity system" they've shown or answered jack specific details.

Ducked every question about pvp and other systems and then suddenly slimeball says oh we know exactly what we are doing with the death penalty ?

Sure sure.

Pyros_sl said:

I didn't understand the weapon skill thing the same, to me it simply sounded like GW2 where your 4 skills are based on your weapon type, not the actual weapon. So all greatswords get the same skills, all mace+shield get the same etc. Difference comes from mods on the weapon which will affect certain things via passives that are less shitty than just +20str and more like "All your utilities area of effect radius is doubled" or "You gain a temporary speed boost everytime you use a weapon skill" kind of shit. That's the way I understood it, I think having your weapon skills actually tied to a particular weapon is a good way to make sure everyone wants the exact same weapons all the time because the skillset is stronger than other weapons usable by your class. Which is awful.

Anyway yeah the shit they've shown, the game isn't releasing anytime soon, it looked way way early alpha stuff, they had mobs with no AI, only showed a very small sample of areas and monsters and classes and items, so yeah. Seems like a 2015 game to me.

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You're actually missing the worst part of it. Since everyone can do everything AND you can level up your other classes with any class, that means there's no such thing as rolling on your class's items. So you're in a group and a sweet sword drops. Everyone's going after that fucker, cause even if they're not the tank, they're leveling one up as we speak!

Muligan_sl said:

Wait, what just was said about PvP? I can forgive a lot if the gameplay is good.

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tad said Sullen (Deity) style, that jives with the lore panel info..


The Seraph

-8 gods brell, karana, mithaniel, bertox, etc

The Four

-Earth, air, wind, fire

Veeshen

-Dragons